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Scottish Education

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There are quite a lot of worries about what's fair, Canny Lass. The NUS is concerned that some institutions may reject Scottish students, while an RUK (other part of UK) student with lower grades could access a place because they are willing to pay.

Edinburgh intends charging over £9,000 per year for tuition fees. Possibly the most expensive place to study in the UK. £36,000 for a degree. Tempting!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-14784810

The foreign students have been forking out for a long time and there seem to hve been a lot of problems because some of them don't quite have the language skills required.

I see Glasgow has moved up the league of tables in world universities so maybe more high calibre students will be attracted and give Edinburgh the cold shoulder. It's ot such a good idea starting off your career carrying all that debt.

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What are the main points, lynnski? Do you agree?

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What are the main points, lynnski? Do you agree?

Well, there are some sweeping generalisations too, but he's not wrong about certain things. Back when the education act was first put in place, the majority of people didn't care about child welfare, or education, each child that worked brought more income into very poor households. The education system we have in Britain is still very much based on the original concept, of course there have been changes over the years, but the principle is still the same, line kids up in a room and try and teach them by rote/repetition. And now, putting on my sociology hat, the way in which children are taught is very much designed for them to learn to behave appropriately around authority figures, follow cues such as bells telling them where to go next, etc etc, in order to produce a willing and pliable workforce, all in the name of capitalism. Don't forget, even though the Church attempted to provide education it was a patchy and mostly ineffective system, with no official leaving age, and also excluded girls for many years. Education as we know it now only became compulsory after the Industrial Revolution. So, yes, I think I agree with the main points :lol:

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Well, there are some sweeping generalisations too, but he's not wrong about certain things. Back when the education act was first put in place, the majority of people didn't care about child welfare, or education, each child that worked brought more income into very poor households. The education system we have in Britain is still very much based on the original concept, of course there have been changes over the years, but the principle is still the same, line kids up in a room and try and teach them by rote/repetition. And now, putting on my sociology hat, the way in which children are taught is very much designed for them to learn to behave appropriately around authority figures, follow cues such as bells telling them where to go next, etc etc, in order to produce a willing and pliable workforce, all in the name of capitalism. Don't forget, even though the Church attempted to provide education it was a patchy and mostly ineffective system, with no official leaving age, and also excluded girls for many years. Education as we know it now only became compulsory after the Industrial Revolution. So, yes, I think I agree with the main points :lol:

I think there has to be a degree of organisation in any school, lynnski. There's a certain amount to get through and only a limited amount of time in the school day. I think the main purpose of school is to teach the children their prescribed subjects. Mind you, some of the kids don't recognise authority and that can cause a problem.

I do think children should be encouraged more to show initiative and learn skills such as problem solving and time management, especially by the time they get to secondary. A lot of them get a bit of a shock when they arrive at university and find out that they are now responsible for their own learning.

I'm only really familiar with the school that our wee ones go to and what I like is that they love school and set off every day with a smile.

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The foreign students have been forking out for a long time and there seem to hve been a lot of problems because some of them don't quite have the language skills required.

I see Glasgow has moved up the league of tables in world universities so maybe more high calibre students will be attracted and give Edinburgh the cold shoulder. It's ot such a good idea starting off your career carrying all that debt.

It's beginning to look like £9,00 is going to be the norm in England, even in the less prestigious universities, formally known as polys.

The policy for charging English students seems a bit orf, IMV. I get the whole residency bit but how can they justify charging English students while waving the fees for other European students? I don't see the reasoning behind this. What's the rationale?

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It's beginning to look like £9,00 is going to be the norm in England, even in the less prestigious universities, formally known as polys.

The policy for charging English students seems a bit orf, IMV. I get the whole residency bit but how can they justify charging English students while waving the fees for other European students? I don't see the reasoning behind this. What's the rationale?

I think the rationale is just to make some money, harper. They're not allowed to charge other Europeans so have to operate within the relevant laws.

I'm wondering what benefit Eton can bring to helping state schools up their performance? Cameron's latest brainwave, or is this just a further move to break up the welfare state by introducing more private education?

Or is it just to get folks talking posh and moving to the right?

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And England doesn't count as being in Europe?

Apparently England, so far as the unis are concerned, is UK and not RUK, harper.

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Apparently England, so far as the unis are concerned, is UK and not RUK, harper.

The universities in Scotland will surely have to be offering something exceptional for students to pay around £36,000 for a degree. When you think that you can get an honours degree in English universities in three years then economically it would make more sense to avoid Scotland. Or we will be attracting the rich rather than the smart.

It could cause a racial divide between Scotland and other UK countries.

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If Scotland did not charge, then our universities would be oversubscribed, leaving no room for Scottish domiciled students. It is up to the Westminster government to vote against tuition fees in England and for the Welsh Assembly and the Northern Ireland whatever-its-name-is to deal with tuition fees in their own areas. Scottish students choosing to study in England, Wales, and N. Ireland pay fees.

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If Scotland did not charge, then our universities would be oversubscribed, leaving no room for Scottish domiciled students. It is up to the Westminster government to vote against tuition fees in England and for the Welsh Assembly and the Northern Ireland whatever-its-name-is to deal with tuition fees in their own areas. Scottish students choosing to study in England, Wales, and N. Ireland pay fees.

Won't Scottish Universities be oversubscribed with non paying European students?

Sadly, hell will freeze over before Westminster does a Uturn on tuition fees.

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Aims to improve equality in educational opportunity in Scotland appears to be going nowhere with the latest report showing things the same as they have always been. At some schools only a small percentage of children go on to university yet another school a few miles away large numbers will enter higher education.

For example: "5.1% of children at Govan High go to university, it is a different story at the High School of Glasgow, less than three miles away. This private school is only a few minutes’ drive from Govan High, yet 98% of its pupils end up in higher education. Edinburgh’s fee-paying Fettes College is just two miles from the state school at Craigroyston. But while only 8% of pupils at Craigroyston make it to university, the figure for Fettes is 97%."

"Only 1% of pupils at Drumchapel High achieved five or more Highers in S5 in 2009, compared with 39% at Jordanhill."

However, houses in Jordanhill sell for big bucks, partly because of the desirable school in the area. It strikes me that to a great extent inequality of opportunity at school mirrors inequality in income.

In Edinburgh one in four kids go to private school.

Brian Wilson (Education Minister in late 90s) appears to have a point:"You need a sustained attack on the sources of inequality in order to make a difference. ”

He also points out that: “if the yardstick of your education policy is to give free university education to everyone, unless they happen to be English, you end up ignoring the infinitely more important issues of social inequality.”

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home-news/what-determines-whether-you-kid-goes-to-university-their-postcode-1.1130731?40930

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It can hardly come as a shock that numbers of applications to Scottish Universities from other parts of the UK are down since the fees shot up:

"Official figures show applications from England have dropped by 4.5%, from 7296 to 6966, while those from Northern Ireland are down 16%, from 2607 to 2341.

The decline follows the decision by the Scottish Government to allow universities north of the Border to introduce fees of up to £9000 to students from the rest of the UK."

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/education/higher-fees-hit-applications-to-scottish-universities-1.1131047

Hope they've done their sums.

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i was talking to some students at a demo about fees in edinburgh a while ago.

i asked the scottish ones.....since your parents pay taxes to your gov and your gov spends some of it on your education do you think its right for your parents to fund other peoples education when their parents pay taxes but their gov decides not to pay for their education out of it?

my point being its pointless complaining to the scots gov about fees when its free here for us and that they should complain to their own gov.

most of them agreed

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Isn't there a danger that the number of tax funded places could be reduced if universities have to raise revenue as a result of cuts to educ ation budgets?

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Isn't there a danger that the number of tax funded places could be reduced if universities have to raise revenue as a result of cuts to educ ation budgets?

There is a possibility of that, harper.

I'm sure there are plenty of young people who can't afford to go to university that resent contributing to the education of others who are more fortunate.

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if* the uni's get the same amount from the gov for each pupil that they are allowed to charge those from south of the border it shouldnt make any difference to the uni.

the problem lies if that too many students come here for a cheaper uni than in England then there might not be the places for the locals anyway.

*i think they can only charge the going rate but im not sure

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There is a possibility of that, harper.

I'm sure there are plenty of young people who can't afford to go to university that resent contributing to the education of others who are more fortunate.

I know what you mean but since no one has to pay in this country it shouldnt be an issue.

There are loads of adults out there too who grudge contributing to society as a whole never mind just education...but thankfully there is still a tiny bit of socialism left in the gov to make sure they do.

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I know what you mean but since no one has to pay in this country it shouldnt be an issue.

There are loads of adults out there too who grudge contributing to society as a whole never mind just education...but thankfully there is still a tiny bit of socialism left in the gov to make sure they do.

There are plenty who grudge contributing, tig, and moan their heads off about students and people on benefits. A lot of them call themselves socialists. :lol:

There is still tremendous inequality regarding who has access to higher education. Not much chance of being a mature student these days, particularly, if you require child care.

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There are plenty who grudge contributing, tig, and moan their heads off about students and people on benefits. A lot of them call themselves socialists. :lol:

There is still tremendous inequality regarding who has access to higher education. Not much chance of being a mature student these days, particularly, if you require child care.

Thats human nature...to moan about everything. :lol:

Ive tried to get a few courses but found it nearly impossible because of said child care issues.

I did get GNRA to pay for child care over the summer so i could do a CCNA course tho.

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Scottish students choosing to study in England, Wales, and N. Ireland pay fees.

I believe Scottish students wont have to pay fees if studying in any of the other countries......neither will the welsh or NI'ish as their/our govs are funding it.

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I believe Scottish students wont have to pay fees if studying in any of the other countries......neither will the welsh or NI'ish as their/our govs are funding it.

Don't think that's quite right, tig, although, there is some help available.

For Scottish students studying in England:

"Means tested student loans are available based on household income. The maximum available if you study in London is £6,502, and elsewhere £5,417. The Students' Outside Scotland Bursary (SOSB) of up to £2,150 is available to young and mature students from low income families (an additional loan of up to £785 is also available to this group). SOSB replaces part of the student loan.

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Topics/Education/UniversitiesColleges/16640/financial-help

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they still get the same help as they would get if they studied here so studying in england etc shouldn't be effected.

The fund the gov gives them should be enough to cover the fees at least

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I believe Scottish students wont have to pay fees if studying in any of the other countries......neither will the welsh or NI'ish as their/our govs are funding it.

They've brought in the bursaries to help but not to the tune of £9,000 a year, which is what students will pay for fees at some universities.

Scotland still has four year Honours Degree Course so you can see why English and Northern Irish students might now be thinking twice before opting to study here.

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