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In-Out Referendum

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I don't see it as a victory for Farage at all.  In the end he was a bystander.   Without Boris and Gove I think the result would have been different.  They convinced people that there could be a better future outside the EU and now they have to prove it.  They need to work towards creating a new, trade agreement area across the whole of the European Economic region, including non member states  and avoid all of the gliches, and bureaucracy that has led to the present dissatisfaction from so many members.  I hate to say it but if anyone can do it, they can -  because they believe in it.  This future plan was never in Farage's sites and the Tories will drop any association with him like a hot potato.  In the end I am not sure immigration was the issue.  The area most affected in the UK by immigration is London and they voted in. The areas least affected by immigration voted out.     

My comment was in response to Sam's about accepting the Yankee dollar.  So I guess Alex Salmond's motion is ban Trump, return any investment he has made and cancel any future business?

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3 minutes ago, harper said:

I don't see it as a victory for Farage at all.  In the end he was a bystander.   Without Boris and Gove I think the result would have been different.  They convinced people that there could be a better future outside the EU and now they have to prove it.  They need to work towards creating a new, trade agreement area across the whole of the European Economic region, including non member states  and avoid all of the gliches, and bureaucracy that has led to the present dissatisfaction from so many members.  I hate to say it but if anyone can do it, they can -  because they believe in it.  This future plan was never in Farage's sites and the Tories will drop any association with him like a hot potato.  In the end I am not sure immigration was the issue.  The area most affected in the UK by immigration is London and they voted in. The areas least affected by immigration voted out.     

I think Farage and his Ukippers would disagree with you.  Although, I absolutely agree that Boris and Gove played an important part.

They convinced people that they would cut down on immigration. Now it seems that they were talking tripe on that one as revealed by M.E.P. Daniel Hannan on Newsnight.

It's not very likely that they'll get a satisfactory agreement with Europe.  That would not be in the interest of the EU, who now fear other countries bailing out.

Much of the analysis identifies immigration of one of the key defining factors in how people chose to vote:
"For many of those intending to vote leave, immigration was the most important issue with an Independent poll in early June finding a third of voters more concerned with it than the economy."

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/eu-referendum-leave-u-turns_uk_576e9c3ce4b08d2c56394817

Initially the focus was on the Economy but it soon became clear due to the extent of information put forward by the experts that the economy could go into free fall so "Putting immigration front and centre was a calculated move"

Albeit that claims here could also be refuted.  http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-referendum-immigration-and-brexit-what-lies-have-been-spread-a7092521.html

I'm sure The Tories will distance themself from Farage, why would they not but he did a great job for them in drumming up the hatred and racism that most definitely fed into the Brexit campaign and victory.  Also evident in every single television debate over the past couple of years.

 

 

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I think Johnson and Gove won on spending, with their promise to redirect EU spending directly into the NHS.  The fishing industry and farmers were key players in the Brexit outcome.  There was a lot more to this than immigration.  Whatever it is, there has been a democratic process and we need to get on with it.  As with the Scottish referendum nearly half of the population were never going to be happy with the outcome.  London has a population of 8.63 million and is one of the most ethnically diverse cities on the planet and it voted to remain in. Sadiq Khan has already said that London will put it's weight behind making sure any new deal reflects the core values and principles London remain voters voted to preserve.  No one is listening to Corbyn because he has nothing to say.      

 

 

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This morning, I woke up in a country I do not recognise. David Cameron’s big gamble – the future of Britain against his personal political ambitions – has backfired so badly that we’ve blasted clean out of the EU. By the time I’d put the kettle on, the stock markets were in free fall, Scotland was debating a new independence referendum, Sinn Fein was making secession noises, and the prime minister had resigned.

There’s not enough tea in the entire nation to help us Keep Calm and Carry On today. Not on a day when prejudice, propaganda, naked xenophobia and callous fear-mongering have won out over the common sense we British like to pride ourselves on. Not on a day when we’re being congratulated by Donald Trump, Marine Le Pen, and nobody else. Well done, turkeys. Santa’s on his way.

Nigel Farage, the rich, racist cartoon demagogue, boasts that this victory was won “without a single shot being fired”. Tell that to the grieving family of Jo Cox, the campaigning Labour MP gunned down last week. Farage promised that unless something was done to halt immigration, “violence will be the next step”. It looks like we’ve got a two-for-one deal on that one.

So, here’s the thing. This was never a referendum on the EU. It was a referendum on the modern world, and yesterday the frightened, parochial lizard-brain of Britain voted out, out, out, and today we've all woken up still strapped onto this ghost-train as it hurtles off the tracks. Leave voters are finding they care less about immigration now that their pension pots are under threat. Maybe one of the gurning pundits promising them pride and sovereignty should have mentioned that, but they were too busy lying about the NHS. The curtain has been torn away and now we all have to look at the men behind it. They are not good men.

Anyone feel like they’ve got their country back yet? No? That, after all, was the rallying cry of the Leave campaign – the transatlantic echo of "Make America Great Again". There’s a precedent for what happens when svengalis with aggressively terrible haircuts are allowed to appeal to parochialism and fear in the teeth of a global recession, and it isn’t pretty.

It says something about this campaign that I’m no longer at all worried about risking hyperbole or unoriginality when referencing all that Nazi history they made us study in school. I’m just frightened. I’m frightened that those who wanted "their" country back will get their wish, and it will turn out to be a hostile, inhospitable place for immigrants, ethnic minorities, queer people – everyone and anyone who wasn’t included when Farage proclaimed victory for "ordinary, decent people" this morning in front of a posse formed entirely of angry-looking, whey-faced blokes in suits.

But the thing is – I want my country back too.  I want to wake up tomorrow in a country where people are kind, and tolerant, and decent to one another. A country where people – all people – can feel at least a little bit safe. I want to rub the sleep of neofascist nightmares from my eyes and find myself in a country where we do not respond to the killing of a politician by voting against everything she stood for. A country where we are polite to our neighbors. A country where we have dealt like adults with the embarrassing fact that we once conquered half the world, instead of yearning for a time when our glory was stolen from enslaved people a convenient ocean away and large parts of the map were the gentle pink of blood in the water. I want to go back to a Britain where hope conquers hate; where crabbed, cowed racism and xenophobia don’t win the day; where people feel they have options and choices in life and are less likely to press the big red button to bring the house down on top of us. I want my country back.

That country, of course, is fictional. But it’s no less so than the biscuit-tin, curtain-twitching, tea-on-the-lawn-with-your-white-friends-from-the-Rotary-Club fantasy Britain the other side have been plugging for years, editing out all the ugly parts of the past and photoshopping it into the backdrop for an image smeared indelibly across the back of all our sickened eyeballs this morning, an image of fists raised and boots marching in step. If they’re allowed their fantasy, can I have mine, too?

The Welsh have a word for this feeling. The word is "hiraeth". It means a longing for a home you can never return to, a home which may never have existed at all. The Welsh, incidentally, voted to leave the EU after decades of being ungently screwed by government after conniving Tory government; cackling and tearing the heart out of towns which were once famous for something other than teen suicide. Finally, someone gave them the opportunity to vote for change, for any change at all. When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like David Cameron’s face.

Cameron, who today must be longing for the morning when all he had to deal with was the papers claiming he once had sex with a dead pig in university, sold us all up the river that runs through the chasm of British culture. In a sop to the eurosceptic wing of his own party, he gambled the future of the nation and the political stability of the continent for his own career.

The whole mess started because of a disagreement between rival factions of a right-wing government which is still tearing itself apart and taking the rest of us with it. The fractured Left, unable to unite behind a leader with a popular mandate, was nowhere in this conversation until it was far too late. Cameron promised a referendum in order to pander to the rise of a xenophobic far right and secure his own power: he got his wish, was duly re-elected, and now his career is over, and so are the life chances of millions of young British people. He gets to slink off back to Oxfordshire and live off his family money. Don't weep for Hameron. He'll be fine.

If only the same were true of the rest of us. As it stands, tens of millions are going to suffer. Real people are going to hurt. Real people are going to die. That is David Cameron's fault, more than anyone's. It was right for him to resign, but he will surely be replaced by any one of a rogues' gallery of gurning ideologues who have been decrying “experts” and “elites” to people so desperate for change that they didn’t care that those elites are people their wisecracking white knights literally went to school with.

This morning it looked like Britain had shot itself in the foot. By lunch time, with two political parties imploding and the stock markets crashing, it appears our aim was higher above the knee. This was not just a vote against Europe, but a vote against Westminster and the entirety of mainstream politics. Every political party campaigned hard for a "Remain" vote – but Britain still chose to Leave, even if we’re regretting it this morning.

There are huge areas of post-industrial decline and neglect where people are more furious than Cameron and his ilk could possibly understand, areas where any kind of antiestablishment rabble-rousing sounds like a clarion call. In depressed mountain villages and knackered seaside towns and burned-out former factory heartlands across the country, ordinary people were promised that for once, their vote would matter, that they could give the powers that be a poke in the eye. Westminster may have underestimated how very much it is hated by those to whom mainstream politics have not spoken in generations.

In desperation, the Remain camp begged us to think of the markets. Unfortunately, everyone here hates the markets. Fear-mongering over "the economy" was never going to work when the most deprived areas of the country have already suffered years of savage right-wing austerity in the name of safeguarding "the economy". Those parts of the country clearly felt that things were bad enough already, that they had little enough to lose that they could gamble the rest on the possibility of being lied to. British people are used to being lied to by incompetent spivs in the name of "protecting the economy". Unfortunately, this time the spivs were dead right.

As the tattered remains of the government try to work out what Brexit will actually mean in practice, more damage has already been done to our economy, to our prospects and to the job market than years of open borders ever could have. In the meantime, the cackling clown-car drivers rolling this catastrophe over the wreckage of civil society are already cheerfully admitting that they lied about their key campaign statements. No, there won’t be £350m more to spend on the NHS, whatever Vote Leave wrote on its battle bus. It turns out that the reason you can’t get a GP appointment isn’t because of immigration, but because the Conservatives have spent six years systematically defunding the health service and cutting public spending to the bone. Brexit will mean more of that, not less.

This was a working-class revolt, but it is not a working-class victory. That’s the tragedy here. The collective howl of rage from depressed, deindustrialised parts of the country bled white and reckless by Thatcher, Blair and Cameron has turned into a triumph for another set of elites. Another banking crisis, another old Etonian in power – that’s what we’ve got to look forward to as Scotland decides when to let go of the rope and the union splinters into jagged shards and we all realise we’re stuck on a rainy rock with Michael Gove, forever.

I wish I could tell you that we’re about to turn this around. I wish I could tell you that we’re about to collectively realise, even at this late hour, the magnitude of our mistake – that we will discover a new capacity for tolerance, a new resilience, a way to recover ourselves and remember our common humanity. I wish I could tell you that the cannibalistic, scattered Left will rally. Today, I don’t want to make any promises. All I see is a lot of racist crowing on the internet and campaigners being told to go back where they came from. I’ve already had people telling me it won’t be long before a new Kristallnacht, and people like me had better go back – where? I was born in London. Perhaps the city can secede. That’ll do wonders for house prices.

This Britain is not my Britain. I want my country back. I want my scrappy, tolerant, forward-thinking, creative country, the country of David Bowie, not Paul Daniels; the country of Sadiq Khan, not Boris Johnson; the country of J K Rowling, not Enid Blyton; the country not of Nigel Farage, but Jo Cox. That country never existed, not on its own, no more than the country the Leave campaign promised to take us to in their tin-foil time machine. Britain, like everywhere else, has always had its cringing, fearful side, its cruel delusions, its racist fringe movements, its demagogues preying on the dispossessed. Those things are part of us as much as beef wellington and bad dentistry. But in happier times, those things do not overwhelm us. We do not let bad actors reading bad lines in bad faith walk us across the stage to the scaffold. We are better than this.

 

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14 hours ago, Pat said:

Given Ukip's blatantly racist stance I think they are detestable, Tom"ar" To.

The Scottish National Party holds strong appeal and is hugely popular with many of the Scottish people.

I've been laughing my head off at Trump's welcome in Turnberry with Mexican flags surrounding the course. Hilarious. Not much 'pandering' in sight.
Not much of a welcome.  Alex Salmond has certainly gone off him:
"We welcome all Americans -- minus Trump," Alex Salmond, a member of parliament for the Scottish National Party and the former leader of Scotland’s semi-autonomous government, said in an interview this week. "He’s not a popular person in Scotland, but the way Trump talks you’d think he owned the country"

"Trump’s reputation in Scotland has already been badly damaged by a feud with his key allies in north-east Scotland, chiefly the former first minister Alex Salmond, once his most influential supporter, over a windfarm two miles away from Trump’s Aberdeenshire resort which the region’s business and political leaders support but which Trump hates. He has fought that up to the UK supreme court, losing at every stage.

Salmond was among the signatories of a petition urging the UK government to ban Trump from entry to the UK after his outburst on Mexican migrants last year. Ford believes US voters need to learn from Scotland’s experience. “The man appears to treat the whole of life as a publicity stunt,” Ford said. “He appears to have no impulse control. I now see a campaign in the US, which is again characterised by ridiculous assertions and ridiculous promises. And again they’re being believed by so many people. Our experience is that they shouldn’t be believed.”

I think it's sad that Democracy is being hijacked and used in an un-democratic way.by politicians with ulterior motives.

 

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3 hours ago, harper said:

At last Corbyn has something to say.  He has sacked Hilary Benn!!!!

but the thing is Harper,

they are all turning against their leader

and yet last year Ed Milliband was blamed for their defeat at the general election.

and Now DC is gone despite winning a majority of seats.

and the public are meant to believe that a new leader in the Tory Government and opposition will make things better?

I shake my head in despair Harper ; 0 (

and in the meantime people everywhere feel cheated and let down as well as insecure as the future now looks bleak(er)

now that Britain is no longer part of the EU.

Personally I think Corbyn is prolonging his pain...and he should do the right thing and leave.

but his pride will be hurt cause he came in as the new leader with most people singing his praise

only to find that the praise has been replaced by contempt and his party is Treating him as if he is a liability.

there's no worse feeling than Rejection 

especially when its twofold...from the party and the public.

he knows the clock is ticking loudly and its just a matter of time.

and whoever takes his place will be under immense pressure to re connect with the public

during a time when trust in politicians is at its lowest ebb.

and if he/she fails they will suffer the same fate as Corbyn.

but even if a General election is called and Labour Win,

it won't be because they have convinced the public that they have got their Act together,

but rather cause the situation is farcical and the people are desperate and will vote for anyone who says what they want to hear.

but does that mean they will prove competent once they are elected?

Blair was a one off and I don't think there is a person in the shadow cabinet that can reach the hearts of the public as he did.

The problem with Labour is that they say all the rights things when in opposition and do all the wrong things when in government.

so sad.

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Nicola Sturgeon should be offering classes in statesmanship at Westminster. She is a joy to listen to and only in Scotland can we see that our leader is on the case. There is no vacuum in leadership in Scotland.

 

 

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11 minutes ago, Pat said:

Nicola Sturgeon should be offering classes in statesmanship at Westminster. She is a joy to listen to and only in Scotland can we see that our leader is on the case. There is no vacuum in leadership in Scotland.

 

 

I Agree Pat.

but the sad thing is if you check out the Scotsman website,

you will see

there is no end of Sturgeon critics expressing in strong terms why they dislike and don't trust her.

so though she is seizing the initiative to call for independence,

I doubt she will succeed as long as the Scottish public are divided in their opinion about her as first Minister of Scotland.

 

 

 

 

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See Ian Murray has now quit and Heidi Alexander. So now we've no Shadow Secretary and no-one to replace him.

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6 minutes ago, Pat said:

See Ian Murray has now quit and Heidi Alexander. So now we've no Shadow Secretary and no-one to replace him.

I still believe that a house divided cannot stand Pat

and The Labour Party is a house which is in a dreadful state of disrepair.

in its current state its not fit to lead the nation.

so sad.

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The Scotsman is vehemently anti SNP, Tom"ar"To.  As has been the case with all of the Scottish Newspapers apart from the Sunday Herald. In the face of their ongoing propaganda it's been quite a triumph for SNP that they have built such a strong following.

Heaven knows what's going to happen now the Labour MPs are leaving in their droves. Tristam Hunt argues that this is because they are not able to represent their constituents. I'm wondering if the Labour Party Membership is still very behind Corbyn.  I think he hardly got a look in for the Blue ln Blue coverage of the media. 

If it came to a choice between Corbyn and Johnson then I would rather have Corbyn a million times over. It strikes me as bizarre that apparently Johnson is currently busy working on a plan for Social Justice. That'll tax him somewhat.

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I don't understand that when it comes to Scotland looking after Scotland's interests that is  nationalism but when England does the same thing it's racist.  Perhaps someone can explain the difference? 

it is Corbyn's arrogance that is keeping him from resigning.  He has to go.  

As FM for Scotland, Nicola Sturgeon  is rightly looking to protect Scotland's interests but she has no influence or weight beyond that - something she tends to forget at times. 

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For Scotland its civic nationalism based on the desire to build a better future for all living in Scotland

 

For England it has been based on a narrow nationalism of anti immigrant that has resulted in a wave of attacks on the Polish community since the result was announced

 

There's a significant difference

 

I see Boris is now muttering that the referendum didn't really deliver a decisive answer.  Given the complete collapse of every tenet of the leave campaign in the past 4 days it might be better we don't get on with it and take stock.  

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The New York Times opinion piece on the UK out of the EU makes sobering reading.

Here, also, from the Independent

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/i-bregrexit-i-voted-for-brexit-and-now-i-realise-what-a-terrible-mistake-i-made-a7104181.html

 

 

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Politics in the UK is in a terrible mess after the vote for Out of Europe. It is better in Scotland and although we voted to stay in Europe and could be taken out gainst the democratic will of the people it has opened the door for a second referendum for Independence. Over the week-end 2000 more people have joined the Scottish National Party. I think that as well as being the most popular politician in the UK that Nicola Sturgeon wields substantial weight.  She has also been the only politician to send out any clear messages and the only leader who looks as though she knows what she is doing. Business wants stability and clear leadership and finance might prefer to make their headquarters in Edinburgh rather than London  especially if we gain Independence.   Brexit was won as a result of lying about the money that was available about Turkey imminently joining the UK and about the fear of immigrants and the other lie that figures would  be controlled.  It was Ruth Davidson who made this very clear on the television debate.  The Referendum  was an in fight between Tory factions and their greed and ambition has made the UK a laughing stock.  The Labour Party have made matters even worse with their bickering and resignations. None of them look like responsible people who care about the people they are meant to be representing.

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12 hours ago, harper said:

I don't understand that when it comes to Scotland looking after Scotland's interests that is  nationalism but when England does the same thing it's racist.  Perhaps someone can explain the difference? 

it is Corbyn's arrogance that is keeping him from resigning.  He has to go.  

As FM for Scotland, Nicola Sturgeon  is rightly looking to protect Scotland's interests but she has no influence or weight beyond that - something she tends to forget at times. 

I think when Scotland is looking after its own interests that it is the right thing to do and if England wants to look after its own interests then it would probably be better if it had an English Parliament, at the moment Westminster serves the whole of the UK. 

I don't think Corbyn should resign – he was voted in on a large mandate.  I think it is irresponsible of the Labour MPs to cause further chaos at this time.

I think that, particularly at the moment, Nicola Sturgeon is one of the most important figures in UK politics.  She is correct when she says that we are in unchartered territory.  The Scottish Parliament is required to abide by EU Law and possibilities have been identified whereby Scotland could remain within the EU on a voluntary basis.  Some of the most important figures within the EU have come out and vocalised their support for Scotland being part of the EU.  This story has a way to run. I'd say she holds both power and influence and she has the backup of many of the Scottish people – with the numbers growing.

I don't think that Scotland is attracting the ridicule that the Brexit resulted in. 

View from Germany.

 

brexit germany.jpg.jpg

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Of course Scotland should chart it's own course but that really doesn't answer my question of why, when England voters do the same thing it is seenn as racist. 

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Who sees it as racist?  Have I missed something? 

What I do see as racist are the, not unexpected, problems arising with increased reporting of racial abuse. Not really unexpected as the Brexit vote has lent credence to the anti-migrant dialogue that has been pushed as part of their campaign.

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It's going to be interesting. Nicola Sturgeon in talks with Gibraltar:

'Fabian Picardo, the territory's chief minister, told the BBC he was speaking to Scotland's First Minister, Nicola Sturgeon, about various options.

One possibility under discussion is for Gibraltar and Scotland, which both voted to remain in the EU, to maintain the UK's membership of the bloc.

Northern Ireland could also potentially be included in the talks.

"I can imagine a situation where some parts of what is today the member state United Kingdom are stripped out and others remain," Mr Picardo told Newsnight.

"That means that we don't have to apply again for access, we simply remain with the access we have today, and those parts that leave are then given a different sort of access, which is negotiated but not necessarily under Article 50," he said, referring to a provision in the Lisbon Treaty that sets out how a member state can voluntarily leave the Union.

Past precedents

There is a precedent for such a proposal. Denmark joined what was then the EEC in 1973, the same year as the UK and Ireland.

Greenland gained autonomy from Denmark in 1979 and seceded from the EU in 1985, following a referendum three years earlier.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36639770?SThisFB

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Did you see Farage's performance yesterday at the European parliament?

behaved like a spoiled brat, 'who's laughing now' then went on a spree of slagging off all of the MEPs, being very insulting then finished off with telling them how they must cut a deal with the UK? A shocker and did nothing but build more resentment against UK. After him, the lead SNP MEP spoke reminding the parliament that Scotland was a nation that was proud to be European and did not let the EU down at the referendum and now Scotland needed their help to let us remain part of the EU. He got a standing ovation.

Junker then spoke and suggested that Mr Farage could be the next prime minister of the kingdoms of England and Wales. 

Farage, in his own nasty way, may yet prove to be Scotland's best hope of remaining in the EU.
 



 

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6 hours ago, samscafeamericain said:
Did you see Farage's performance yesterday at the European parliament?

behaved like a spoiled brat, 'who's laughing now' then went on a spree of slagging off all of the MEPs, being very insulting then finished off with telling them how they must cut a deal with the UK? A shocker and did nothing but build more resentment against UK. After him, the lead SNP MEP spoke reminding the parliament that Scotland was a nation that was proud to be European and did not let the EU down at the referendum and now Scotland needed their help to let us remain part of the EU. He got a standing ovation.

Junker then spoke and suggested that Mr Farage could be the next prime minister of the kingdoms of England and Wales. 

Farage, in his own nasty way, may yet prove to be Scotland's best hope of remaining in the EU.
 



 

Unbelievable. Farage certainly isn't smoothing the way for beneficial deals being struck.

 

Response to Farage and Alyn Smith.
 

 

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Ireland and Denmark voted back into the EU after new terms were agreed.  The UK could probably do the same.  Lots of hard talk coming from EU member states We'll see where we are a month from now .  Talks haven't started yet.  

I understand the desire for a second referendum but Scotland could find itself out of the UK with no certainty of getting back into the EU.  That looks very precarious for the Scottish economy - no Bartnett formula, no EU funding for certain.  Can the Scottish economy be self sustaining or is it wiser hang to on and see what new UK trade deals are negotiated?

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Angela Eagle puts in challenge against Corbyn's  leadership and the SNP want to be the official opposition.  Double O.o

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Maybe we'll get back to the old argument. If we're not getting the pound then we're not sharing the debt because if it wasn't for the UK's vast debt then, just like all the other country' Scotland would be perfectly capable of going it alone. But we're not at that stage. 

I don't like the suggestion about being the new Opposition as it further undermines Labour and they don't need any more aggro.

I think Scotland would be allowed into the EU if it was an Independent country, why ever would there be opposition to that?  How long it might take no-one knows.

In the meantime today's News is all about the bids for the Tory Leadership.  Gove's even in on it. Dear God.

I am enjoying the jokes. Crabb wouldn't be taking them forward – he'd be going sideways.

Talk about Salmond and Sturgeon. We've now got Eagle and Crabb.

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