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In-Out Referendum

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I wouldn't dispute that the EU has done a lot of good.  I opened lots of EU protects, too - mainly in the 80s but I feel I have to look at the EU for what it is today and where is is heading and the proposed agreement with TTIP and the hard right in Europe makes me more nervous than the Tories, to be honest.

Edited by harper

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It has done a lot of good and still can. The Tories will never do any good and are intent on breaking up the NHS and the Welfare State. God knows they are bad enough already. I really don't think they will take us out and I do hope that the forces seeking change within the EU will have had the doors opened for them.  I think this started out as a Tory infight but it is a good thing that people are now more paying more attention. 

It was interesting listening to John McDonnell, he says Labour are about to get their show really on the road regarding their In campaign. Although h acknowledged that Alan Johnson had been doing a great job.  As I said before, we haven't seen too much of that.

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Dominated by the far right in Europe  and tethered to TTIP.  On this world stage, Tory domestic policy is way down the agenda.   No wonder Obama is getting nervous about his special "relationship" with Cameron - the stakes are high.

I will be genuinely interested to see what McDonnell and Corbyn have to say about staying in the EU, given that they have been against for most of the working careers...

 

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You can hear John McDonnell's views on staying in Europe on the Andrew Marr Show (about 30 mins in) http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0744sfs/the-andrew-marr-show-13032016

He thinks you need to be In Europe to have a chance of addressing International / Global affairs – including TTIP.

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On 3/12/2016 at 5:06 PM, harper said:

Indeed... and here's the daddy of them all... TTIP.  Still want to stay in the EU?

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/what-is-ttip-and-six-reasons-why-the-answer-should-scare-you-9779688.html

The choice is not stay in the EU and get TTIP or Brexit and not get TTIP.  TTIP is not agreed and is opposed in its current form across Europe and indeed across the USA.  The UK Government could have excluded the NHS from TTIP deliberations but chose not too; that shows you the direction the tory government is going in.  I would be more fearful of tying myself for any length of time to Cameron, Osborne, et al than to the EU.

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It may not be agreed, but it is hasn't been dismissed and until TTIP is dead in the water, I am concerned about a possible future agreement with the EU. 

I theink the EU, in its present form is becoming is more and more unstable and unsustainable.  The recent elections in Germany are very worrying and more and more countries are securing their borders and abandoning Schengen. Free movement in Europe is being voted out by action, not legislation.

Until Labour are in power, Corbyn et all have no real power in Europe and even then it is debatable just how much power the UK has, when it can be  voted down by other right wing member states.   Corbyn's track record has been anti EU and I don't know what to make of his lack of profile on the In/Out referendum.  All we have had from the Labour leader is one low key statement back in September saying the Labour will be campaigning to stay in.  He really is making himself irrelevant.  Corbyn claims he's In because he wants socialism in Europe.  Labour can't get elected to achieve socialism in the UK!  As someone quoted, Corbyn's campaign speech on the EU should have been a noteworthy announcement but in the end it was just another day with a y in it.

I lost all respect for John McDonnell after his interview where he effectively airbrushed Mo Molan out of the Peace talks in Ireland, taking most of the credit for Corbyn and himself... really?

We have Cameron a two more years and we could have a Labour Government if we voted strategically.   We have the EU for future generations ....

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European leaders will meet today to discuss and try to address the migrant crisis. They've not made much of a job of it to date but if they were out of Europe then the UK would happily ditch all responsibility – that's my opinion.

I agree with Hilary Benn regarding the Merkel driven meeting today regarding Turkey's role – 'It's the only show in town.'

Some of the strongest arguments I've listened to regarding Europe have come from the Green Party – who laud the EU for the role it has played regarding environmental improvement – they point out that global issues can much better be tackled by an EU than a UK out of the EU. 


 

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I haven't actually heard anyone talk about ending migration.  I have heard people talk about managing migration.

There are no shortage of good ideas coming from the Greens and if the EU was a stable, democratic union then I might agree with them.

Turkey - what a hot potato that one is.  Merkel's unilateral action on talks with Turkey to solve the migrant crisis, while Germany blocks their access to the EU... another no brainer.

 

 

 

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Don't think anyone has heard any talk of 'ending' migration. Where did you see that, harper?

Turkey sure is a hot potato – with a key role to play nonetheless.

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I think there is some hope with the EU and it is right they do place some importance on the environment. I know there are arguments and frustration with some of the rules and ways in which they operate but I think with Britain moves out of the EU it will become even more right wing.

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On 17/03/2016 at 5:44 PM, Pat said:

Don't think anyone has heard any talk of 'ending' migration. Where did you see that, harper?

Turkey sure is a hot potato – with a key role to play nonetheless.

People seem to talk about Brexit and migration as if any talk about controlling numbers is the same as putting a stop to it altogether.  

It is interesting to see the workings of the EU right here, right now, on the verge of a referendum.  You would think the membership might make some attempt at a semblance of democratic process and order but we are on the verge of a cobbled together agreement designed for Turkey so that they will shut up and take the strain of the refugee crisis and even before it is on paper, no one really believes it will work.

 

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We've had Obama behaving like a 'rackstar' here in the UK for the last few days and talking about the benefits of TTIP, amongst other things.  Now Clinton has come out staying leaving the UK would be in the UK's best interests.  Help or hindrance to the in/our debate?  Anyone got an opinion?  

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On 24/04/2016 at 10:29 PM, harper said:

We've had Obama behaving like a 'rackstar' here in the UK for the last few days and talking about the benefits of TTIP, amongst other things.  Now Clinton has come out staying leaving the UK would be in the UK's best interests.  Help or hindrance to the in/our debate?  Anyone got an opinion?  

Interesting hearing Obama explain that it would take years to establish a trade deal with USA.   Don't fancy TTIP at all.  Didn't see anything about Clinton but don't think she would hold much influence.

 

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On 26/04/2016 at 0:19 AM, Pat said:

Interesting hearing Obama explain that it would take years to establish a trade deal with USA.   Don't fancy TTIP at all.  Didn't see anything about Clinton but don't think she would hold much influence.

 

the strange thing is Pat,

If a British politician went over to America and started telling them what to do,

he or she would be laughed out of town

and severely castigated by the British government and the Media.

 

 

 

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He don't want anything threatening the progression of TTIP, I suspect?

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/what-is-ttip-and-six-reasons-why-the-answer-should-scare-you-9779688.html

...And when did America ever stay out of anyone's business?  I always think America gives us the best and the worst - like when a country produces someone like Trump.

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  • 1 hour ago, Tom"ar"To said:

    the strange thing is Pat,

    If a British politician went over to America and started telling them what to do,

    he or she would be laughed out of town

    and severely castigated by the British government and the Media.

     

     

     

    You're likely right. Are the government and the media  the same thing in USA like what we've got? Cameron shouldn't encourage Obama to come here as it just makes him look even more uncool.

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11 minutes ago, samscafeamericain said:

Obama made the speech Cameron wrote for him, just as he did in the Scottish independence referendum 

I'm glad you wrote that Sam

because it gives me reason to question the label given to the current us President as the so called "most powerful person"

think about the hostile reaction to Barack's speech by men such as Boris Johnson.

I say he reacted as he did because Barrack makes him feel inferior?

and most of us know that Boris Loves the limelight.

I can't think of any other politician who enjoys using the media their advantage than Boris.

and so along comes Barrack who dares to Tell the British people what to do about the referendum!!!!!!

only Boris would see that as an opportunity to draw attention away from Obama To Himself.

cause he is "the mayor of London" and in his mind

no one should tell the British people how to vote except Boris.

and only Boris can accuse "the Most Powerful man" of outrageous hypocrisy and more

and still be able to wake up the following morning as Mayor of London.

President Putin is above Obama as most powerful

and yet When Litvinenko dared to criticize the Kremlin,

Lo and Behold he ended being poisoned with polonium-210.

the difference between the two most powerful men in the world could not be more clearer.

one is a totalitarian and the other "appears to be a puppet" in the hands of the British Prime Minister.

to be Honest Sam I'm more inclined to believe in fairies than to believe that Obama would "bow to a British Prime Minister"

Prime Minister Cameron is but He Ain't no smoothy Sam.

I wouldn't buy an old banger from him.

  

 

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On 28/04/2016 at 10:56 AM, Veronica said:
  • You're likely right. Are the government and the media  the same thing in USA like what we've got? Cameron shouldn't encourage Obama to come here as it just makes him look even more uncool.

what upset me Veronica

was hearing Boris Johnson's unbridled criticism against Obama.

I understand what got him so wound up

but I don't think it did us any favors.

I know we Brits are no longer known by use of "the Queens English"

but our political leaders

should show some respect and restraint when a leader of another nation visits our country.

Boris made himself sound like a desperate ego maniac who is frustrated because Obama doesn't agree with his opinion.

roll on may 5th so that Boris can slip back into obscurity.

 

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I don't know about obscurity.  I think Boris has his eyes on the leadership of the Tory party?

The Tories seem more stable than Labour at the moment - and that's saying something.  Corbyn's troubles are stacking up with Livingstone going rogue.  Both Yvette Cooper and Andy Burham have looked positively states(wo)man like compared to the Labour leadership.  It's all going Pete Tong ...

I am not sure that Obama's input helped matters - Brexit are edging slightly ahead ahead, according to today's polls.  We Brits do not like being told what to do by uppity American Presidents who fly in on big jets, with their opinions and fly oot again after lunch with Queenie.  It matters not really.  Obama is on the way out and so is Cameron, by his own statement about this being his last term.  Sadly, I think this gives some leverage to Johnson and Gove, who are perceived by the Tory Party as the future.  Cameron is a dead man walking and Osborne's career is dead in the water.  Hopefully we will see the same happening to Hunt over the debachle he has made over the junior doctor's contracts.  The biggest regret is that there is no robust opposition to take full advantage of the crisis in the Tory Party, they seem all too quick to emulate it at present. Maybe their will be a leadership coup and an end to Corbyn's brand of unreconstructed socialism.

http://www.theweek.co.uk/eu-referendum/65461/eu-referendum-poll-support-for-brexit-edges-ahead-of-remain

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13 hours ago, harper said:

I don't know about obscurity.  I think Boris has his eyes on the leadership of the Tory party?

The Tories seem more stable than Labour at the moment - and that's saying something.  Corbyn's troubles are stacking up with Livingstone going rogue.  Both Yvette Cooper and Andy Burham have looked positively states(wo)man like compared to the Labour leadership.  It's all going Pete Tong ...

I am not sure that Obama's input helped matters - Brexit are edging slightly ahead ahead, according to today's polls.  We Brits do not like being told what to do by uppity American Presidents who fly in on big jets, with their opinions and fly oot again after lunch with Queenie.  It matters not really.  Obama is on the way out and so is Cameron, by his own statement about this being his last term.  Sadly, I think this gives some leverage to Johnson and Gove, who are perceived by the Tory Party as the future.  Cameron is a dead man walking and Osborne's career is dead in the water.  Hopefully we will see the same happening to Hunt over the debachle he has made over the junior doctor's contracts.  The biggest regret is that there is no robust opposition to take full advantage of the crisis in the Tory Party, they seem all too quick to emulate it at present. Maybe their will be a leadership coup and an end to Corbyn's brand of unreconstructed socialism.

http://www.theweek.co.uk/eu-referendum/65461/eu-referendum-poll-support-for-brexit-edges-ahead-of-remain

Honestly harper,

if Boris took over from David Cameron

I'd lose the will to live.

and as For Hunt....He's Just a typical Politician trying...in vain to convince the public that he spends sleepless nights worrying about the care they receive when laid up in a hospital bed.

I'd rather believe in fairies Harper.

and as for Corbyn...he reminds me of the Egyptian pharaoh in his chariot desperately trying to overtake the Tories

as the wheels start falling off...one by one.

but honestly harper,

I can't see this farcical situation lasting.

the exit we need is from incompetent politicians and MP's.

they are the ones bringing us down 

as they try to convince us the best is yet to come...after we vote to stay.

I don't know about you harper

but Ive never found a diamond in a dustbin.

the contents tend to be useless...the same applies to politics.

I know I'm being harsh but if we are honest

we will admit that we vote in vain.

       

 

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15 hours ago, Tom"ar"To said:

I'm glad you wrote that Sam

because it gives me reason to question the label given to the current us President as the so called "most powerful person"

think about the hostile reaction to Barack's speech by men such as Boris Johnson.

I say he reacted as he did because Barrack makes him feel inferior?

and most of us know that Boris Loves the limelight.

I can't think of any other politician who enjoys using the media their advantage than Boris.

and so along comes Barrack who dares to Tell the British people what to do about the referendum!!!!!!

only Boris would see that as an opportunity to draw attention away from Obama To Himself.

cause he is "the mayor of London" and in his mind

no one should tell the British people how to vote except Boris.

and only Boris can accuse "the Most Powerful man" of outrageous hypocrisy and more

and still be able to wake up the following morning as Mayor of London.

President Putin is above Obama as most powerful

and yet When Litvinenko dared to criticize the Kremlin,

Lo and Behold he ended being poisoned with polonium-210.

the difference between the two most powerful men in the world could not be more clearer.

one is a totalitarian and the other "appears to be a puppet" in the hands of the British Prime Minister.

to be Honest Sam I'm more inclined to believe in fairies than to believe that Obama would "bow to a British Prime Minister"

Prime Minister Cameron is but He Ain't no smoothy Sam.

I wouldn't buy an old banger from him.

  

 

I didn't say Cameron told Obama to say anything.  But the speech given by Obama was written by someone who speaks English English rather than US English.  Cameron , in my opinion, undoubtedly asked Obama for his assistance and provided the words for him to say.

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15 hours ago, harper said:

I don't know about obscurity.  I think Boris has his eyes on the leadership of the Tory party?

The Tories seem more stable than Labour at the moment - and that's saying something.  Corbyn's troubles are stacking up with Livingstone going rogue.  Both Yvette Cooper and Andy Burham have looked positively states(wo)man like compared to the Labour leadership.  It's all going Pete Tong ...

I am not sure that Obama's input helped matters - Brexit are edging slightly ahead ahead, according to today's polls.  We Brits do not like being told what to do by uppity American Presidents who fly in on big jets, with their opinions and fly oot again after lunch with Queenie.  It matters not really.  Obama is on the way out and so is Cameron, by his own statement about this being his last term.  Sadly, I think this gives some leverage to Johnson and Gove, who are perceived by the Tory Party as the future.  Cameron is a dead man walking and Osborne's career is dead in the water.  Hopefully we will see the same happening to Hunt over the debachle he has made over the junior doctor's contracts.  The biggest regret is that there is no robust opposition to take full advantage of the crisis in the Tory Party, they seem all too quick to emulate it at present. Maybe their will be a leadership coup and an end to Corbyn's brand of unreconstructed socialism.

http://www.theweek.co.uk/eu-referendum/65461/eu-referendum-poll-support-for-brexit-edges-ahead-of-remain

Corbyn is doing well despite the treacherous element in his own party.  His standing in polls is now ahead of Cameron and the membership of the party is at the highest it has ever been.  Rather his brand of unreconstructed socialism than the slavish adherence to neo liberalism favoured by the Blairites 

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The answer to the problem hasn't been identified.  it is not Corbyn or the Blairites.  There are positives and negatives about both.  Things are rarely as black and white as you like to portray them.  The solution is not one side or the other within the Labour opposition.  I think the rise in the membership of Labour in England is more to do with making some attempt to have some opposition to the Tories.  The fact the Corbyn has a higher rating than Cameron means nothing. He is a very nice man.  Does that make him competent?  Not really...  Does anyone really think Corbyn could run the country? He can't run his own party.

 

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In repsonse to Tom'ar'to - sorry the quote button went into perpetual saving mode ...

I am wondering if Boris like the prancing pony role to much to much to be bridled by the PM role.  Party leader for a while yes but I thionk it could be Gove that is up for the big job come the next election.  I just don't think Boris has the discipline.  Either way, Cameron is on his way out and people are moving on.  He seems to have less credibility with each day that passes.  I suspect Hunt will be reshuffled off somewhere to be Minister in charge of paper-clips after his mess.  

Lots of great stuff being done by the Greens etc but the only answer in England is Labour and we are stuffed.  Too many parties on the left say the right things but have absolutely no idea how to generate the income or build the infrastructure to implement their policies.  So many people, have voted Labour,  myself included apart from the Blair years, as the only viable option for England but is really is beginning to feel like flogging a dead horse.  

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