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In-Out Referendum

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The way they are sorting out the constituencies, I think we could be stuck with the Tories for a very long time.

Valoufakis is right to challenge, and to encourage us all to challenge the things that are wrong with the EU – lack of democracy and transparency and some dodgy business arrangements.

I think I sit more or less right beside George Monbiot – going to see him soon at Aye Write –I'm a huge fan.

"Ours is the least regulated labour market in Europe, and workers here would be in an even worse fix without the EU.

On behalf of party donors, old school chums, media proprietors and financial lobbyists, the government is stripping away any protections that European law has not nailed down. The EU’s enthusiasm for treaties such as TTIP is exceeded only by Cameron’s. His defence of national sovereignty, subsidiarity and democracy mysteriously evaporates as soon as they impinge upon corporate power.

I believe that we should remain within the union. But we should do so in the spirit of true scepticism: a refusal to believe anything until we have read the small print; a refusal to suspend our disbelief. Is it possible to be a pro-European Eurosceptic? I hope so, because that is what I am.'

Like many he is suspicious, in fact, he says he is growing to hate the EU – but nothwithstanding that he will vote to stay in – becauee the alternative is so scary.

He's not particularly gone on Cameron's deal either:

'Nowhere is this clearer than in the draft agreement secured by David Cameron. For me, the most disturbing elements are those that have been widely described in the media as “uncontroversial”: the declarations on regulations and competitiveness. The draft decisions on these topics are a long series of euphemisms, but they amount to a further dismantling of the safeguards defending people, places and the living world.'

Of course, given that this is what the Tories and their supporters want, it's no surprise that this was Cameron's focus as he attempted to assuage his right wing buddies.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/feb/10/eu-in-health-wildife-european-union

 

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Though the """EU’s directives are compromised and under threat, they are a lot better than nothing

Though the EU’s directives are compromised and under threat, they are a lot better than nothing

'Though the EU’s directives are compromised and under threat, they are a lot better than nothing...'

 

If this is the crux of George Monbiot's argument for staying then we really are in trouble. 

On the basis of self determination and independence alone, I thought Scotland might consider a vote to leave, for surely, that's what Scotland was seeking in the UK referendum and that desire is now being mirrored in other parts of the UK, in relation to the EU.   It seems to me that there is a lot of agreement on both sides that the EU, as it stands, is deeply flawed.  Some want change from the inside, others from the outside.  I am not sure who, within the member states would be buying the ideas for the "new democracy" but the EU, as it stands, is toxic  and riven with self interest, crippling the likes of Greece, who refuse or can't meet their terms, which at the end of the day came down to pure, hard nose finance.   It doesn't have to be nothing.  We are perfectly capable to fight and win to retain any threatened dismantling of the Social Chapter; and I am not pessimistic to think that Labour could not be back in power at the next election.  It doesn't have to be 'better than nothing' in my view.

 

Still undecided.

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I think we are in real trouble and I think that for many people the issue of Human Rights and Employment Rights is the most important issue.

Labour have kept so far out of the arguments it is shameful. Or perhaps they are just not getting the coverage?

I can't understand why you would think that Scotland would vote out? There was immense anxiety about not being part of the EU if Scotland gained Independence and the scaremongering around that issue was a very important factor in many people voting to remain part of the UK.  The irony has not been lost on us.

I agree that Greece was treated very badly and the caved – against Valoufakis' advice. 

I am not so sure that 'We are perfectly capable to fight and win to retain any threatened dismantling of the Social Chapter;' – haven't done too well in the face of the dismantling of the NHS and the extensive erosion of benefits for the disabled, loss of pensions for thousands of women. 

Apparently contingency plans are already being made by some of the banks based in the City of London, who will move if Out wins.  Boris Johnson dismisses this idea as London has so many talented workers – I'm assuming that these workers might consider leaving London too?

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Alan Johnson has been pretty vocal for Labour but Corbyn is no great fan of the EU but had to tone down his views when he Social Chapter was introduced.  

I made the point about Scotland considering a vote for out, based on their own identified values of independence and self determination, only - a minor point really.  I think many people in England feel about the EU what Scotland feel about Westminster.

The electorate will fight for what it considers important.. or it can just leave it the EU to tell us what to do.  We don't need the EU to give us human rights or good employment legislation.  We don't need the EU to manage migration.  We can do this ourselves.  Gawd, the Tolpuddle Martyers would be burlin'. 

I think we will hear a lot of scare stories about people threatening to relocate, as we did in 2014. Do we need banks based in London?  I'm not sure.  Will Europe stop dealing and trading with the UK? - I don't think so.

The EU hasn't offered any protection on pensions for women, as far as I know and the way to deal with Tory policy and the NHS is to vote them out.  We don't need the EU to do either?

Voting "out" is always a risk, as we saw in 2014.  There wasn't a definitive answer or guarantee on the EU then and there isn't now but I still think it is important not  to accept the status quo without hearing both sides.

I think the vote will probably be to stay in. 

 

 

 

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I understand that Alan Johnson is leading the charge. I have heard him once speaking about this on telly. Like I said – are the Labour party just not getting coverage. 

I notice you keep talking of 'we' but my tendency is to think of 'them' ie the government. I think that given the clear cut desire by them to get rid of human rights that  we cannot depend upon them.  They would love to get rid off as many curbs to big business' greed as possible.  I think Monbiot's views on what David Cameron achieved and why is very revealing and very true.

Some people in Scotland will vote Out as a ploy but I think it is important to show just how much opinion differs from England in this matter. Our distrust of Westminster is stronger than our distrust of the EU.  It's good to see organisations such as that set up by Valoufakis that can challenge the many problems that do exist within the EU.

The EU is also important to Scotland in other ways, such as the protection offered to the Scotch Whisky – Scotland's leading single export and the second biggest net contributor to Britain's balance of trade in goods. 

They are making whisky in England now – cheek of them.

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When I say "we" I mean the collective electorate of the UK and the policies, parties, membership and agreements we vote for.  I don't see this  in/out decision as necessarily been tied to the Tories or any other administration; it goes way beyond that, in my view ...

Sadly, the majority of the Scottish whisky industry has been in foreign hands for years and mostly outside the EU.  England have been well and truly beaten to it.

now. http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/13199861.Revealed__only_a_quarter_of_our_distilleries_are_owned_by_Scots_firms/

 

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Whisky is still Scotland's leading export, although, the tax raised goes into the coffers of The Treasury.  As stated above it is also the second biggest net contributor to Britain's balance of trade in goods. The whisky manufacturers were never off the telly during the Referendum so I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss it.

Many see Brexit as simply a Tory party in fight being played out on the big stage – including Jeremy Corbyn.

I think some good will have come of the Referendum in that it has put the wind up the EU and could reinforce the need for change with some of the big players revealing their thoughts:

A couple of them were on the Andrew Marr show:

'Padoan also used the interview to set out a radical agenda for far greater EU integration, including a European finance minister to build a growth-oriented Eurozone economy that puts as much focus on creating jobs as on controlling inflation.

He also proposed an immigration fund financed by bonds; a deeper single market; a European unemployment insurance fund; a common banking insurance fund; and revised common fiscal rules that are as tough on countries like Germany that run persistent trade surpluses as those running excessive budget deficits.'

Concerns were also highlighted:

'Schäuble told BBC1’s Andrew Marr Show: “We would have years of the most difficult negotiations, which would be very difficult for the EU as well. And for years we would have such insecurity that would be a poison to the economy in the UK, the European continent and for the global economy as well.”

I see the Outers are now talking about the Nike Effect – the logo that is - where there will be a dip in the economy (even Boris could not deny that jobs might be lsots) and then there would be the big tick going upwards.  Of course, there is absolutely nothing to confirm that this would be the case.

 

 

 

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Rory's right and you don't know who to believe. I'll be voting to stay In. Workers rights and human rights would be shredded. Cameron's aims to cut red tape seem to me to mean removing obstacles that business just doesn't like. They are not to be trusted but then I wouldn't trust Johnson either. Cameron never answers a straight question and Boris is the biggest shambles and all you get out of him is waffle.  I wouldn't listen to the queen either – hee hee but somebody I respect is Stephen Hawking and he says it would be bad for science to vote Out. He's clever and decent and that's more than you can say for the Tory MPs elite oxbridge brigade.  Anybody I know who's talking about voting out are only interested in keeping our the refugees.  

 

 

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Nothing to really confirm anything, either way.... that's why it's better to keep questioning, I think, before committing ourselves to an arrangement  that could last another 40 years and hopefully see the Tories out of office forever!

 

 

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I know I said that you do not know who to believe and I still think that but what it would look like outside the EU is an uknown quantity but the warnings about how that would reduce jobs appears to be real. My main reason for voting to stay in is that we know there are problems with the EU and we know that David Cameron was only interested in removing obstacles that big business face. I do not think that Human Rights would be safe without the EU placing some rules there as the UK government would like to get rid of them at the moment. So we do not know who to believe but we know what the experience has been of this government and what they have done to people. It would be even worse without Human Rights legislation. It needs to be firmed up not reduced. The Labour party does not want out of Europe and neither do the Greens or SNP.  The Tories want out because it would suit their right wing aims to be out and UKIP because they are so against the migrants.

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On 20/02/2016 at 11:51 AM, Pat said:

It's ridiculous that so much time has been consumed in Brussels with a little tinkering around the edges to appease David Cameron, when the focus should be on the hellish situation relating to mass migration.

He'll be emerging 'triumphant'.  I just hope he convinces people to vote to stay in as the protection offered by Europe to Human Rights would be swiftly swept away if the UK is outside.

Scotland seems very firmly in the staying in side so don't know where that will leave us if the rest of Britain decides to pull out.

Apparently, Michael Gove's intelligence – will give great gravitas to the Out campaign. And what is Boris saying?  I rhought he would have been on the News today.

 

 

I personally view the EU thing as a vanity Project which serves the interests of DC AND BJ.

 

Edited by Tom"ar"To
my message was incomplete.

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The last time I looked, David Cameron was voting to stay in

I do wonder whether the UK's future outside the EU is less certain that Scotland's future would have been outside the rest of the UK?  I don't think the vote will support leaving the UK but I am not confident that there is room to bring about the democratic changes that people are talking about.  The fundamental purpose of the EU is to promote greater social, political and economic harmony across Europe yet what we have are bullying states, economic casualties and a  disjointed set of currency, trade and border agreements - at great financial cost.  I think the original vision and purpose of the EU has been lost and I really do wonder whether we are flogging a dead horse.... 

 

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I think David Cameron is definitely voting to stay in. He's just got himself in a fix. It's a bit of a mess. Although may have started out as a vanity project.
Weird having the Tories dominate both sides.

I don't know how certainty is measured. I think we can be certain that a UK outside of the EU would have less committment to social justice al and environmental issues.

I think a Scotland outwith the UK would have greater commitment to human rights and social justice.  Good to see more companies including Sport Scotland paying the living wage (higher than that which Osborne is introducing) to employees and sub contractors.

The attitude of Cameron and Westminster towards Scotland is disgraceful.  You only have to watch Parliament in action to witness the jeering of SNP MPs. See they're now looking to extend EVEL because they're miffed that SNP, Labour and the rebel Tories grouped together to vote down the Sunday opening.

I think the UK wield consideable power within Europe – but they don't like being held back by what they call 'red tape' – that would include protection for the environment and people. They would run amok without the UK, imperfect as it may be.

 

 

 

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50 minutes ago, Pat said:

I think David Cameron is definitely voting to stay in. He's just got himself in a fix. It's a bit of a mess. Although may have started out as a vanity project.
Weird having the Tories dominate both sides.

I don't know how certainty is measured. I think we can be certain that a UK outside of the EU would have less committment to social justice al and environmental issues.

I think a Scotland outwith the UK would have greater commitment to human rights and social justice.  Good to see more companies including Sport Scotland paying the living wage (higher than that which Osborne is introducing) to employees and sub contractors.

The attitude of Cameron and Westminster towards Scotland is disgraceful.  You only have to watch Parliament in action to witness the jeering of SNP MPs. See they're now looking to extend EVEL because they're miffed that SNP, Labour and the rebel Tories grouped together to vote down the Sunday opening.

I think the UK wield consideable power within Europe – but they don't like being held back by what they call 'red tape' – that would include protection for the environment and people. They would run amok without the UK, imperfect as it may be.

 

 

 

 

pat,

Just a thought... Isn't it strange, 

that British people vote for their government who are controlled and influenced by European bureaucrats?

this makes it easier to understand why politicians and the electorate are so divided over the EU.

 

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No don't like TTIP at all. There have been massive protests against it in Berlin. They've also been protests at Holyrood. It's an interesting on – Cameron seems to be pretty much in favour. 'The Scottish Government and NHS campaigners say the UK Government could ensure the NHS is vetoed from TTIP in the same way the French government has vetoed its film industry from any trade deal, but Cameron has made no indication that he’s willing to contemplate this.'

I think there's still some sorting out to do with this one.  So would there be no TTIP for an Out UK? Or would the approach be to veer more towards the American model with worse workers conditions, environmental concerns etc? 

 

On 11/03/2016 at 6:17 PM, Tom"ar"To said:

 

pat,

Just a thought... Isn't it strange, 

that British people vote for their government who are controlled and influenced by European bureaucrats?

this makes it easier to understand why politicians and the electorate are so divided over the EU.

 

In Scotland we feel controlled by Westminster and there's a divide.  Doesn't appear to be such a big divide here with regard to In/Out – so far as the polls indicate.
I'm actually very glad that there are some EU controls as the Tory Govenment are hell bent on removing human rights and workers rights.

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Goodness sake, what next?
"

A BORDER poll on the reunification of Ireland should be held if Britain votes to leave the EU, Martin McGuinness has said.

The Sinn Fein leader predicted any exit would be against the democratic wishes of the Irish people.

The Democratic Unionists are the only large party in Northern Ireland to campaign for Brexit in the June referendum.

Mr McGuinness said: “Such a negative development would represent a political and economic game changer.”

Sinn Fein, the Ulster Unionists and the nationalist SDLP are campaigning to stay in the union.

Mr McGuinness added: “Ireland’s place north and south is in Europe and leading change in Europe.

“If Britain votes to leave the European Union then that could have huge implications for the entire island of Ireland and, given all the predictions, would run counter to the democratic wishes of the Irish people." The National, 12 March.

Theresa Villiers the Northern Ireland Secretary is supporting Brexit.

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13 hours ago, harper said:

Indeed... and here's the daddy of them all... TTIP.  Still want to stay in the EU?

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/what-is-ttip-and-six-reasons-why-the-answer-should-scare-you-9779688.html

TTIP was warned about well before the Independence referendum.  TTIP is opposed across Europe, however, Brexit would guarantee the worst elements of TTIP imposed on the UK by Tories.  The NHS would be open to the worst cherry-picking of the private health industry. 

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If you are not in the EU then you are not bound by TTIP?  

John McDonald on Andrew Marr this morning making the point that Labour will lead a campaign for a reformed EU.  Marr pointing out that  UK influence will be had to achieve as Europe is moving more and more to the right. Voting IN feels a bit like like strapping yourself to a ticking bomb.  Whatever the outcome, it's a mess.

 

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1 hour ago, harper said:

If you are not in the EU then you are not bound by TTIP?  

John McDonald on Andrew Marr this morning making the point that Labour will lead a campaign for a reformed EU.  Marr pointing out that  UK influence will be had to achieve as Europe is moving more and more to the right. Voting IN feels a bit like like strapping yourself to a ticking bomb.  Whatever the outcome, it's a mess.

 

I understand that. The point I am making is that some of the issues TTIP brings would be very likely to exist.  I agree it is a mess.

1 hour ago, harper said:

If you are not in the EU then you are not bound by TTIP?  

John McDonald on Andrew Marr this morning making the point that Labour will lead a campaign for a reformed EU.  Marr pointing out that  UK influence will be had to achieve as Europe is moving more and more to the right. Voting IN feels a bit like like strapping yourself to a ticking bomb.  Whatever the outcome, it's a mess.

 

Good to see so many politicians now looking to challenge EU. Following David Cameron's lead – ha ha.  Well, his feeble and narrow attempts, have at least shown that there can be change.

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38 minutes ago, Pat said:

I understand that. The point I am making is that some of the issues TTIP brings would be very likely to exist.  I agree it is a mess.

Good to see so many politicians now looking to challenge EU. Following David Cameron's lead – ha ha.  Well, his feeble and narrow attempts, have at least shown that there can be change.

I can't looking at this whole EU thing in this way...will staying put and keep an affordable roof over our heads and keep our tummies full?

and does everyone realize just how insecure we are as a nation?

despite the fact that five aims of that market were...

  • To bring together the peoples of Europe.
     

    To raise living standards and improve working conditions.
     

    To promote growth and boost world trade.
     

    To help the poorest regions of Europe and the rest of the world.
     

    To help maintain peace and freedom.

  •  

   

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I think the objectives and drivers  of TTIP are much more dangerous than anything the Tories could achieve.  People really need to thgink about what they are voting themselves into, as much as what they are voting themselves out of?

 

  

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For a long time a massive amount of many came from Europe to address poverty in specific regions in Scotland – for years I submitted successful funding applications for both the European Social Fund and the European Regional Development Fund to develop Save the Children Fund's largest UK anti-poverty project. So have had the benefit of seeing how this worked at first hand.

Without doubt it has also improved workers' rights.

Some of the rest is up for debate but I think there would clearly be greater barriers between countries for anyone withdrawing from the EU.

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