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Pat

In-Out Referendum

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I don't think the UK would be better out of Europe but if it's an out vote then Scotland would look more likely to gain Independence.  It's just a bit worrying that knowing this that some people in Scotland will vote for Out. Even although Nicola Sturgeon has explained on social media that they should vote to stay, as she says, it's the best thing for the whole of the UK.  However, only if Scotland votes In and the rest of the UK vote Out  will the opportunity for a second Referendum open up.

Boris Johnson, I think is right, that if it's an Out vote then Cameron would need to go and there would be a vacancy at No 10, which Boris has his eyes on.  It seems the world is going mad. We could have President Trump and Prime Minister Boris.  Dear God. they'll just have to bring back Spitting Image.

Boris Johnson seems such a numpty. He reckons that it would be easy to negotiate trade deals because Britain used to rule the empire. No wonder Yvette Cooper says somebody needs to tell him we're in the 21st century.

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I wasn't talking about this Government.  During the Scottish referendum people kept saying this is not about the SNP.  This is a historic decision that goes beyond the present Scottish Government - ie - a decision for future generations.  That was the comparison I was making.  No biggie ....:)

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The Scottish Referendum was definitely about the SNP as Independence was the raison d'etre for their existence.  However, many people who are not SNP voted for Independence.  Obviously with regard to In/Out those, who are not Tory, nor UKIP, will vote to leave Europe.  In my opinion many will vote to leave because David Cameron has scared them with his talk and attitude towards refugees.

Diane Abbott was very clear last night on Question Time about the problems that will be encountered with regard to trade tariffs and the instability the country will face on the international market if they pull out.  But I shouldn't be arguing against it as the ideal outcome for me would be for England to vote Out along with Northern Ireland, who are all for it, and for Scotland to vote in.  This massive difference would create a situation calling for a further Referendum.  I wouldn't at all want to be part of a country who turned their back on what appears to be the world's most important union.

On an emotional level I would be happy to see Cameron hoist by his own petard.

 

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Abbot is hardly a credible  expert on anything these days.  Her socialist credibility was severely damaged by sending her own child to a private school, while representing a London constituency with some of the worst schools in London in London - so I'll pass on her opinion ...

I hope people vote In or Out for the right reasons and not just to spite the Tories.  Membership of the EU is a long term game that will extend beyond the present government.

I can't help remember the plight of Greece without it raising questions in my mind as to whether membership is the right thing. I don't think BoJo wants out.  He wants to push things to the brink for a better deal.  It's politics ...

I want the UK to be part of an EU whose finances aren't  crippled  by the budget cap, that is ethical and that can file a decent set of accounts.  I do feel it is time for a complete  overhaul.  There are models within EU such as a Customs or Free Trade Agreement model that work well for other countries.   Noway, Iceland and the Swiss all have alternative agreements to full EU membership that seem to meet their needs.  

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I don't think spiting the Tories comes into it, harper. You would have to be sure which part of the divide you wanted to spurn.   It's all about this split. Pushed into it by UKIP and the anti-immigration campaign.

Apparently the figures for numbers of migrants in the UK applying for National Insurance (of course they want work) is around 600,000 but official numbers show approximately 1/3rd this number.  Basically the government are sitting on the true figures.

Yes, I know about the debacle with Diane Abbott and the private school. I don't think that means that she knows nothing about anything.

Boris Johnson seems to think that if Britain votes Out that he can then negotiate a better deal. Maybe people will still want out. Maybe they won't want to negotiate and maybe the people who voted Out won't want back in.  I think I agree with Alex Salmond that this is all pie in the sky.

I don't think the EU is perfect but I do know we have them to thank for Human Rights Legislation and all the other stuff listed in earlier post.  NIcola Sturgeon stated back in September that she wouldn't let the repeal of Human Rights go ahead as the Tories had planned to do before Christmas.  There is no doubt about it if the UK is out of Europe that repeal will likely be the first thing to go.



 

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I don't think it is about which half of the divide, Pat and I don't think anyone should be voting In or Out on the basis of migration or any one particular aspect.  To my mind, it's about what EU membership means as a whole and whether there are better alternatives for the UK.  The UK has leverage in Europe and we should use it.  Alex Salmond didn't have much traction on the question of Scotland's future membership of the EU for the Scottish referendum and I think it cost him dear in terms of the vote.  I am not sure what he has to add to the debate now...  

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I think what Salmond added has already been shown to be spot on as Boris has retracted the daft notion of his sort of hokey-cokey in out approach and Out will mean out.  I agree with you, harper, that people should not base their decision on one particular aspect but to date polls have shown that the main reason cited for people voting out is migration. No suprise – and if it is an Out vote then I think that Cameron will most definitely be hoist by his own petard.

Salmond did agree with Boris that if it is an Out then it will be goodbye Cameron.

 

 

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After the last UK election I am not sure what we can trust from Polls ... 

The arguments are out there, it's interesting, I'll make up my mind nearer the time.

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Had a laugh at Neil Findlay but get his point. He can't campaign for Out because he wouldn't be seen dead siding with the likes of Farage, Iain Duncan Smith, Gove and he can't campaign for In because he'd never stand beside Cameron for anything. You've got to appreciate his dilemma. hee hee.

Only five Labour MPs supporting Out. I've weighed it up and much as I'm wary of agreeing with Cameron - the Ukippers scare me even more so I'll be voting In. Human Rights would be right out the window.

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The gloves are off.  The Outers are furious because apparently Cameron has denied them access to civil servants' research relating to the EU.  After the role the civil service played in the Scottish Referendum we know that they overstep their role so here they are at it again.

Iain Duncan Smith was giving Cameron pelters on the Andrew Marr Show this morning: 

He told the BBC's Andrew Marr Show: "I say this to those who say they want to remain in.

"I have never heard such a lot of pessimistic, downsizing of Britain's aspect. Britain is a phenomenal country, the fifth largest in the world.

"It has stood alone and fought for freedom. It has traded, it has global trade.

"Why would we have such a low opinion of the British people that we go out and we talk about leaping into the dark?'

Quick to jump onto the PM's favourite catch phrase with the leap into the dark.  I think the Tory Party will be hard pushed to recover from this fiasco, whatever the outcome.  Their wee difference of opinion being played out on the world stage. Politics is a strange beast.

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The Sunday Politics show had Owen Patterson espousing the benefit of opening up world trade without EU restrictions and had Andrew Neil writing  Labour's next election manifesto for Allan Johnson, on solidifying UK employment rights under our own jurisdiction.  That just might get Corbyn elected.... na, not even that.

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We might as well relax. If it it goes ahead – apparently it'll take 10 years to extricate the UK from Europe.  Funny how Scotland would have been chucked out immediately and never find their way back in.

Allan Johnson is firm on the In side – only five Labour MPs support Brexit.

Apparently, Switzerland have been trying for many years to reach independent agreements with the EU and Norway pay a fortune but have no say in anything.

Lots of concerns being raised about decades of workplace rights being axed if Brexit goes ahead.  http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/14308255.Decades_of_workplace_rights_will_be_axed_after_a_Brexit_vote__one_of_Scotland_s_top_lawyers_warns/

I know you can't necessarily go by the polls but such a dramatic difference between Scotland and England regarding how eurosceptic people are.

 

http://yougov.co.uk/yougov-8545/?preview=1&draft=1&language=en

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Now the charities are worried about the massive losses they are likely to experience with Brexit.  I was lucky enough to benefit from very large sums of European Social Fund and European Regional Development Fund for many years when I managed Save the Children's largest UK project.  Hard funding to get an very rigorous monitoring but very worthwhile.  http://thirdforcenews.org.uk/tfn-news/200m-brexit-threat-to-uk-charities?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Weekly+Third+Force+News+-+management&utm_content=Weekly+Third+Force+News+-+management+CID_ff347247b69c1c899a564a44d139b22d&utm_source=Email+marketing+software&utm_term=200m+Brexit+threat+to+UK+charities

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One thing after another.  Big meeting today at Anglo-French summit – threats that there will be no Border Control at Calais if Britain exits. Of course, this is being denied.

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It's kind of like a replay of the Referendum – all the same tactics. 

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...And the same patter.  "We're stronger together" depending on who your preferred partner is ... 

David Cameron 2014 

Nicola Sturgeon 2016

I am hearing so many people saying they are voting out.  Not because they are Daily Mail readers or anti European but because we are propping up an EU agreement that is well past it's sell by date and not fit for purpose.  I'd vote for a complete overhaul with all the member countries. Still undecided but can't really see what there is to vote for that we can't achieve ourselves at this stage.  Somebody convince me to stay!

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The argument had me at post 22 "- the anti-EU campaign will have the full force of Murdoch's and the other 4 extremist right-wing media billionaires papers whose agenda is to destroy all our human rights."

However, I think it will be an out vote because it's not like it's just the Daily Mail that's spouting Gove and Ian Duncan Smith message.

It's a Tory infight – Cameron's got himself in a pickle. Pat that man Farage on the back.

 

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Most of the people I know who are considering "No" don't support Cameron or Farage and it has nothing really to do with immigration.  

"Project Fear"

Alex Salmond 2014

Boris Johnson 2016

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Interesting to hear the anecdotal viewpoint of the people you know, harper.  I can only go by the interviews I've been hearing on the telly – on Question Time the big issue for the public seemed to be migrations – just as it seems to be for the man/woman on the street that you see interviewed.

And without doubt – the UKIPPERS kicked this one off and are very much in support and linking the issue closely to controlling migration. 

To say 'it has nothing really to do with immigration' is not at all the way it looks and will be a huge influencing factor as to how people will vote.

The Labour Party seem to be keeping pretty quiet on the topic and I wish they would speak up as their commitment to Human Rights was the reason they switched from not supporting to being in favour of the European Union.

Yes, agree it is very much 'project fear' – and we heard it all before regarding the Scottish Referendum.

Boris Johnson missed at trick on the Andrew Marr show as he was really pretty boring as well as unconvincing.

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I think the people I have discussed it with are tying to take a long term view and  see the whole picture, rather than jumping on one particular aspect - not voting to stay, just for the sake of it and not voting to go as a knee jerk reaction to the latest  political soundbite, on either side. There is a lot of conjecture on either side.  It's hard to find the facts.

Whatever the final vote, it will extend far beyond this present Government and hopefully into a Labour administration, here in England. I don't see this as being all about the Tories in the long run.  Corbyn has always been anti European up until the Social Chapter was introduced in 1989.  There is no reason why the UK couldn't continue to upkeep the principles of the Social Chapter outside the EU membership, while operating with new trade agreements.  I think there is still a lot to be argued through before making a decision.

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Given that the Tories have recently been unsuccessful in challenging existing Human Rights Legislation – I would have no confidence whatsoever in their not doing their utmost to remove employment rights for starters.   Of course there's no reason why they couldn't keep this other than the ideologies of the extreme right, which we have had the opportunity to see in action.  They see Human Rights as a constraint for big business – I think it is a main part of their raison d'etre for wanting out – and I am not alone.

 

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This is, of course, the alternative to creating change without pulling out. Yanis Varoufakis has the right idea with his DIEM25

 

We call on our fellow Europeans to join us forthwith to create DiEM25 and to fight together to democratise the European Union, to end the reduction of all political relations into relations of power masquerading as merely technical decisions; to subject the EU’s bureaucracy to the will of sovereign European peoples; to dismantle the habitual domination of corporate power over the will of citizens; and to re-politicise the rules that govern our single market and common currency.

We are inspired by a Europe of Reason, Liberty, Tolerance and Imagination made possible by comprehensive Transparency, real Solidarity and authentic Democracy. We aspire to:

  • A Democratic Europe in which all political authority stems from Europe’s sovereign peoples
  • A Transparent Europe where all decision-making takes place under the citizens’ scrutiny
  • A United Europe whose citizens have as much in common across countries as within them
  • A Realistic Europe that sets itself the task of radical, yet achievable, democratic reforms
  • A Decentralised Europe that uses central power to maximise democracy locally
  • A Pluralist Europe of regions, ethnicities, faiths, nations, languages and cultures
  • An Egalitarian Europe that celebrates difference and ends all forms of discrimination
  • A Cultured Europe that harnesses its peoples’ cultural diversity
  • A Social Europe that recognises freedom from exploitation as a prerequisite for true liberty
  • A Productive Europe that directs investment into a shared, green prosperity
  • A Sustainable Europe that lives within the planet’s means
  • An Ecological Europe engaged in genuine world-wide green transition
  • A Creative Europe that releases the innovative powers of its citizens’ imagination
  • A Technological Europe pressing new technologies in the service of solidarity
  • A Historically-minded Europe that seeks a bright future without hiding from its past
  • An Internationalist Europe that treats non-Europeans as ends-in-themselves
  • A Peaceful Europe de-escalating tensions in its neighbourhood and beyond
  • An Open Europe that is alive to ideas, people and inspiration from all over the world, recognising fences and borders as signs of weakness and sources of insecurity
  • A Liberated Europe where privilege, prejudice, deprivation and the threat of violence wither, allowing Europeans to be born into fewer stereotypical roles, to enjoy even chances to develop their potential, and to be free to choose more of their partners in life, work and society.

Carpe DiEM25

http://diem25.org/manifesto-short-version/

 

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Yes, well I can see the hand of Plato's Republic all over this but it'll never happen.  Darwin trumps Plato hands down - and wasn't Yanis Varoufakis the man who was in part to blame for the Greek economic crisis?  Apart from him, who are these people, anyway?

Whilst I don't disagree with you about the Tories, I don't necessarily see the EU referendum as being tied to the Tories in the long term. We will have another UK Labour Government and it will be led by Hilary Benn.... we might just have to wait a while.

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