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samscafeamericain

Labour Party Leadership Debate

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Chukka Umuna seems to be moving further to the right – at least that's the impression he gave on Question Time.

 

Ed Miliband spoke up well in Parliament on the processes regarding English Votes.

Edited by Pat

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It wouldn't surprise me if Chukka eventually crossed the commons and joined the tories 

if that is the best that Labour can come up with here in England, then I doubt they will ever be elected again... which leaves us all with an interesting dilemma. even with 56 or even 59 SNP MPs we will all still be stuck with the Tories. :(

That's why people should have voted YES

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Watching the debate on Sunday Politics.  Agree with Andy Burnham that too many MPs are 'parachuted into their constituencies.'

Good to hear Jeremy Corbyn talk about his passion for equality and human rights.  Certainly a need for that at Westminster.

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None of them seem right to me.... although I think Liz Kendal comes across as the best of a very mediocre bunch...

Not that keen on Nick Clegg's replacement either.... by the way.  Very strange mix of views, that one....

Wondering if we could tempt Tommy Sheppard back south of the border to Harringay.:P  I thought he looked very familiar, actually...

 

 

Labour need to win 90 seats back from the Tories, independent of the Scottish seats.  Kendal understands middle England and the South and they need that, as well as the north of England, to count towards a majority.  She won't get the leadership.  She is like Millieband in a lot of way - keen but green.

Corbyn would take Labour back to the dark ages and Burnham can say what he likes;  he carries the stain of North Staffs and that will not be forgotten in a hurry. 

Edited by harper

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You would think there would be some shining lights.

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The dark ages of the "uncompromising left", yes.  I'd love to love Corbyn but it would be like going back to the days of Kinnock.  The world has changed and Corbyn isn't the man to take the Labour party forward, however,  I do like what Andrew Rawnsley says about him certainly influencing and shaping the leadership contest and I think that's what people like Corbyn, Lucas and Bennett.  I think Rawnsley is right on the money, as to why Labour didn't get elected and I don't think anyone in this leadership context is really taking that on board.  I am not voting for any of them.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jul/19/corbyn-communist-labour-leader

No shinning stars in this leadership selection.  I guess the Tories must be feeling pretty secure right now.

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Corbyn at least has some guts. I can't believe that Harman is advocating abstaining from voting against the welfare cuts. It's completely outrageous.

He's also right about looking at the funding for IS?

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He is right and smart on a lot of things but I don't think he is the answer to Labour's problems.

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Labour's problems seem to run very deep – forty eight of them voting against the Welfare Bill although Harman instructed them to abstain?

If they had voted against it then it would have gone down.  They say they couldn't vote against it because they agreed with some of the content but surely in balance it's not what Labour are meant to stand for?

I agree with Cat Smith, M.P. Labour's problem is not that they are too left wing but that you can no longer tell the difference between them and the Tories.

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Some of the benefit reforms make sense and some are just cack handed. The tax credit system is a mess but none of the reforms improve the situation, quite the opposite but what is so wrong at setting the benefit cap in line with the average working wage?  A lot of people work for less than what is paid out in non-disability benefit levels.  Surely Harman is right to back some proposals and reject others?  Labour is the party of the working man and a lot of ordinary working people support a benefit cap but are against other measures.  Why does it have to be all or nothing?

 

Edited by harper

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The number of people getting benefit in excess of the average working wage are few and far between, the largest portion of welfare goes to 'In work benefits' and 'pensions'.  The first is the state subsidising business yet again and the second is something most people have worked and paid into all of their lives, that successive westminster Government failed to see fit to create a pension/investment fund is down to their crass stupidity.

 

However, given that tax avoidance and evasion amounted to £98 billion last year its easy to see where efforts should be focussed.

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Blair destroyed his own legacy in government over the Iraq war and a lot of the good stuff Labour did in those early years of government have been forgotten.  The Blair years have become like a marriage wrecked by an affair;  the ending becomes the defining factor and the good years are quickly forgotten.  Millieband has the snese to keep out the way.  Toxic Tony would do well to follow his example.

Anne Perkins in the Guardian writes:

....."There is room for a party of the emotional spasm in British politics but that is a party of protest. not a party of government.  Labour is a party of government.  That means they have to shape and articulate the beliefs of the majority of its citizens, not just an apocalyptic tendency."

I want a candidate that will tackle tax evasion AND that will operate a benefit system that doesn't create a benefit trap, cost a fortune to administer or that rewards greedy landlords.  Where's my candidate?

 

 

 

Edited by harper

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I think Cat Smith was right to say that 'in balance' she did not agree with the Welfare Bill so she voted against it. Surely this is what people understand.  I think a straight cut in benefits is going to plunge some families into poverty.  At the end of the day the benefits bill should be the last area to be looked at when savings are being considered.  The most vulnerable are being expected to solve the woes of the country whilst the wealthier are rewarded.  Now there is going to be a further £20 billion cut from services. Basically the Government is on an ideological roll to remove social security and the welfare state. 

Some of the electorate recognise this. However,  whoever controls the media to a great extent (thank goodness for social media) controls the actions and understanding of the electorate. Constantly they appear to be being told that the Tories got it right so Labour should be more like them? 

However, I don't think Labour lost because they were too left wing. And I don't think those who did vote expect them to act like the Tories.

I agree with Owen Jones. o-j-abstention.jpg.jpg

Regarding Tony Blair – he's got a damn cheek and a problematic ego.

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Eh, unless you are sick, disabled or a carer, people can go out and get a job?  They can move, study, work for promotion - just like everybody else.  

Benefits have been capped, not abolished and they have been capped at the average household income,of working people, not the poorest, not the richest.  To achieve the same level of income, someone has to be earning roughly £35k a year and meet all their expenses.   

Working tax credits cost a fortune to administer and however well intention, they are being exploited by employers.  Some reforms are reasonable..  Some reforms are atrocious.  I have mixed feelings about Labour abstaining.  I don't think that was the right thing to do and it would have been better if there had been some drilling down on the hard facts and some compromise.

I can't take Owen Jones seriously.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by harper

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A party of protest or a party of Government and to be a party of Government you have to be a shower of right wing, ideological driven, twisted selfish, self centred b******.   Sometimes its better to lose than to have so much blood on your hands   

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Well, good luck with that one, Sam.   Let's make everybody a victim and let's ignore "hard working people" earning a lot less than £35k a year who don't get any benefit support at all and who struggle to get by. 

And why do you care?  Are you thinking of switching back?

 

 

 

Edited by harper

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How many non working people do you know that get this fictitious £35k per annum from the state?   Leaving aside the near 1,000 in the House of Lords (who collect well in excess of £60k) the poor and disabled who get such sums are few and far between.   What has of course skewed the 'numbers' is the appalling housing situation in London brought about by deliberate tory policies of 1) nil rent control, 2) very limited social housing build, and 3) a new insistence that social housing rents should be forced up to match private sector rents because the market doesn't like the competition.

As for Tony Blair, no other labour leader in history lost more labour voters than him.   

I despair for where the UK is going, two right wing parties slugging it out to see who can dismantle the social and welfare systems our parents fought tooth and nail.  To think this sham - which is no more than ideological zealotry - is cloaked under 'hard working people need to feel superior to the poor and disabled' makes me want to puke.   Corbyn offer the UK an alternative and a road back from the cliff edge of market driven neo-liberalism, corporate led Government.    

My aim is independence for Scotland and that won't change.   Currently the SNP are the only show in town capable of delivering that.  I look forward to maybe one day being able to vote for an independent labour party in scotland that is based on social justice and equality rather than market driven ideology.   

 

 

 

 

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Good.  You've had your say and made you point.  My point is that Labour also need to speak and represent other points of views and interests if they want to get elected.  I used the benefit cap as an area where some people have felt very aggrieved.... ordinary people - not toffs.  Of course, you then need to escalate it out the ballpark.  Well rant away.  Labour did not lose because bankers and people in the house of lords didn't vote for them.  They lost because they were out of touch with the "working man" and the "working man" has changed, whether you want to believe that or not and the Labour party needs to take account of these changes, without veering madly to the right or staying stuck in the far left, if they are going to be truly representative of their membership across the UK.

You can go and work on your figures if it pleases you but I won't be adding to that.  I will be too busy looking up the rent control act for Scotland?

 

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I think the whole benefits system is a mess. Mainly because of the incompetence of people such as Iain Duncan Smith, still struggling long after the deadline (October 2013) to introduce Universal Credits, already at considerable cost. 

Then there is the reluctance to investigate and reveals the number of deaths alleged to have resulted from sanctions.

I would not argue that there are some who work the system, however, there are also those billions in unclaimed benefit.  That is people not receiving the benefit they are due.  https://speye.wordpress.com/2015/06/25/66-million-per-day-24-billion-per-yearin-welfare-goes-unclaimed/   

In my opinion Duncan Smith could not run a menage. 

And it is without doubt that changes to the benefits system will contribute to ever increasing child poverty and I don't think those disabled people outside Westminster are protesting about nothing.

Basically no-one see the benefits system as fair or efficient.  No matter what side of the fence you happen to be on.

The main people who gain are the landlords and I agree with harper.  Rent control should be high on the agenda.
 

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We have banged on about rent control ad nauseam on this Forum but it doesn't look as if it will happen anytime soon.  Labour would have done well to look at this seriously but I haven't heard any of the leadership talk about it, so far?  It's a tricky one, everyone wants rent control but no one wants their properties to lose value.  For a lot of people that is their pensions ...

I am not surprised that people don't get the benefits they are entitled to; the system is a nightmare. The whole system need to be overhauled.  I have ever seen the point of implementing a system that is over bureaucratic and costs millions to administer.  I liked the Green's idea of a universal income, although I am not clear what their figure of £75 a week was based on and I am in favour of a benefit ceiling to stop landlords robbing local authorities blind.  If we operated benefits more like pensions, without all the hooha of means testing and catching people out, I am sure there would be savings.  All we have is a patch-up job on an already bad system.  I think the Tories were right on the money raising the minimum wage but didn't set it high enough.  The mess over tax credits is the new bedroom tax fiasco and I just wish someone had the humility to climb down and say they have got these bits wrong. 

Student loans is the biggest tragedy for this generation, in my opinion and I curse every MP who voted for it, especially the Scottish Labour MPs who voted against it in Scotland.  The Tories won because they claimed the middle ground that Labour needs to claim back and I am not sure any of these candidates can do that.

I wish Corbyn was the answer but I don't think he is.  Jeez, I am beginning to have fond memories of Nick Clegg.  We saw a Tory win coming and the country didn't do what it took to dodge the bullet.   Labour need to grow from it's value base into a modern world.  Blair may have lost the greatest number of Labour voters, Sam but he won them in the first place. 

 

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Agree with just about all of that, harper.  They can't see the wood for the trees and no chance of the Tories sorting out the benefits system. Not with morons like Duncan Smith - surely the most inept politician around.

You are also right the Blair won the votes in the first place – that was before he was a Blairite though.

I truly feel for the students and the young people.  They talk of aspirations but withold the wherewithal and encourgement. Aspirations and barriers are a strange mix.

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Blair was obviously getting something right in the early years but it seems that power really does corrupt and people get carried away with their own sense of omnipotence. 

Blair's term will be forever tarnished by Iraq.  Burnham is forever tarnished by North Staffs.  Cooper is tarnished by her husband, amongst other things.  Kendall is tarnished by her Blairite pedigree.  Corbyn just doesn't cut it for me...

 

 

 

 

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