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lynnski

Panic (on the streets of London)

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Lucky you n me n others Mags but things have changed, the Welfare system does certainly not treat single mothers kindly any more. The government keep insisting they start work but they have not increased pre 5 nursery places. The CSI where fathers were expected to contribute has proved an absolute nightmare for most families.

From my memories of being a single parent, the welfare system was never over generous, and working to get an extra £5 a week was more satisfying than not workin. I can't actually remember violence and looting.

There are many support networks for single families today that were not their when I was a single parent. As for the riots, when the police are seeing 11 year olds and telling their parents to get them home, then there is obviously not a lot of parenting going on in their lives, maybe that would be a good place to start.

Harper the heading of your post was

Well, these kids have certainly got people sitting up and thinking....and not before time, IMV.

Are you not referring to the riots when you say people have finally sat up and took notice ?

That seems to be about right, rory. We've always had an element of mindless hooligans in our communities; we've not previously seen violent and destructive uprisings throughout England. This tends to make you ask - as you have. "What is the cause?"

I also remember hooligans in my community also, but I also remember the police had respect, parents had respect even neighbours had respect from youngsters, That isn't the case now, why, parenting.

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I think that is a bit of conjecture Maggs. On reading your earlier post you painted a different picture from the one that Harper painted in his post but feelings are running very high on this topic. From what I understand Harper is in London so maybe more in the picture than the rest of us.

I have just finished work and my workmates have been arguing about the riots all day. There are some of them who simply see the violence of mindless hooligans and there are some who are asking why this is happening. There are some people who think it is time to ship the water cannons used in war torn Ireland across the sea. A few think that there is a need to engage with young people in their communities and create opportunities in employment and education to give them some hope.

I have been hearing all day that this could not happen in Glasgow but nobody seems to be able to say with any conviction why that is the case. I hope it does not come to us but there are a lot of dispirited young people here too. There are not a lot of jobs about but I think young people here are more likely to see the Scottish Government on their side to some extent. Reasons could be that the students are not paying tuition fees and there are moves to make more apprenticeships available. It could be this makes them less alienated.

I do not believe that there is the same massive divide in society in Glasgow as there is in London. We are not that rich but we have the poor areas. I heard that a 16 year old has been arrested in Glasgow for trying to orchestrate a riot on Facebook. I hope he is alone but it shows we should not be complacent.

I have heard in my workplace a few people condoning the violence and viewing it as a manifestation of class struggle. I think there is a possibility that they are right. I would be happy if note was taken that same as Harper I do not condone methods but this uprising has to have a cause. What is the cause?

It's difficult to say what the tipping point has been, Rory but there is no doubt that many people are outraged by the Government's economic recovery plan.

London is closed tonight. Most shops and businesses were advised to close at 5.30pm. The police seem to be keeping control of the situation tonight but it is still early. The only topic of discussion is the riots and there are police everywhere.

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Lucky you n me n others Mags but things have changed, the Welfare system does certainly not treat single mothers kindly any more. The government keep insisting they start work but they have not increased pre 5 nursery places. The CSI where fathers were expected to contribute has proved an absolute nightmare for most families.

The Welfare System is a mess, Hingmie, and only looks as though it will become more draconian.

However, I doubt there are many single mums among the rioters. Looks mainly like young men and youngsters on bicycles. There must be ringleaders among them and peer group pressure can be so powerful.

I feel sorry for parents with teenagers and one thing for sure: all of the kids out participating in the riots will not all be receiving what some would describe as 'poor parenting'.

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It's not just the shops that are closed, many Doctors and Dentists in these areas have closed, some moved elsewhere, inundated with calls to day from residents from Lewisham etc wanting to know where they could go to see a doctor, A&E departments are overcrowded and some people cannot get treatment.

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I think that is a bit of conjecture Maggs. On reading your earlier post you painted a different picture from the one that Harper painted in his post but feelings are running very high on this topic. From what I understand Harper is in London so maybe more in the picture than the rest of us.

I have just finished work and my workmates have been arguing about the riots all day. There are some of them who simply see the violence of mindless hooligans and there are some who are asking why this is happening. There are some people who think it is time to ship the water cannons used in war torn Ireland across the sea. A few think that there is a need to engage with young people in their communities and create opportunities in employment and education to give them some hope.

I have been hearing all day that this could not happen in Glasgow but nobody seems to be able to say with any conviction why that is the case. I hope it does not come to us but there are a lot of dispirited young people here too. There are not a lot of jobs about but I think young people here are more likely to see the Scottish Government on their side to some extent. Reasons could be that the students are not paying tuition fees and there are moves to make more apprenticeships available. It could be this makes them less alienated.

I do not believe that there is the same massive divide in society in Glasgow as there is in London. We are not that rich but we have the poor areas. I heard that a 16 year old has been arrested in Glasgow for trying to orchestrate a riot on Facebook. I hope he is alone but it shows we should not be complacent.

I have heard in my workplace a few people condoning the violence and viewing it as a manifestation of class struggle. I think there is a possibility that they are right. I would be happy if note was taken that same as Harper I do not condone methods but this uprising has to have a cause. What is the cause?

I certainly hope that we won't see riots anywhere in Scotland, rory. There are dispirited young people here too but I can't imagine that they will feel so forsaken as youth from underprivileged communities in London. There is nowhere near the same 'us' and 'them' divide. London is a very, very rich city compared to Glasgow.

Perhaps young people here, as you suggest, are less alienated, although, I wouldn't be too complacent or suggest that there are no problems.

However, at least the students don't have tuition fees so there are more options open to young people from less well off families. Especially those living at home. This creates more of a mix and nowadays there are more children from underprivileged neighbourhoods going onto Higher Education than back in the 60s and 70s, when students got grants.

Mind you according to the News there are students among the rioters who have been arrested.

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Are you not referring to the riots when you say people have finally sat up and took notice ?

Maggs, people have been ignoring this problem for a long time and it is shocking that it has taken such extreme behaviour to finally get the issue on the agenda for discussion.

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I can't imagine that they will feel so forsaken as youth from underprivileged communities in London

This is my idea oftruly underprivileged communities

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This is my idea oftruly underprivileged communities

Sorry, Maggs, not with you here.

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People protested against the war and were ignored. People protested against cuts and were ignored. Unrest has filtered down to a level of people who are treated as an underclass, who are disenfranchised, disheartened and very angry. That the authorities claim to have not seen this coming is the biggest endictment of their abject failure.

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People protested against the war and were ignored. People protested against cuts and were ignored. Unrest has filtered down to a level of people who are treated as an underclass, who are disenfranchised, disheartened and very angry. That the authorities claim to have not seen this coming is the biggest endictment of their abject failure.

Not sure what you meanby this, are you saying this is the authorities fault ?

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Not sure what you meanby this, are you saying this is the authorities fault ?

I think what he's saying as that, whilst shocking, the riots are not that surprising.

A quick search of the Internet brings up many blogs and articles sharing samsc opinion and analysis on the television indicates that many hold this view:

"The lefties are pointing out that the riots are happening in the context of massive cuts to welfare, in communities that have at best problematic relationships with the police and involving young people alienated by the systematic inequality and racism they suffer routinely.

Right-wingers are just looking for someone to blame, from the borderline classist/racist ‘it’s these criminal chavs/blacks/muslims/insert Daily Mail hate group’ to the ‘give the police tanks/machine guns/rocket launchers’ to the ‘they all use Twitter and Blackberries you know’.

But I’m surprised we haven’t seen things kick off sooner.

A generation of kids are constantly told that having more stuff is the route to fulfilment in life. Item: The same kids have no access to said stuff. Dear old Lady T did away with society in order to free us up for total market domination of every aspect of our lives. Her successors continued the policy and persisted with consumerism as the axiomatic basis of all human fulfilment. Conclusion: Kids with a burning desire for more stuff and no belief in society may very well start smashing up their communities to get a taste of the good life.

''' Politicians and politicos will rush to condemn. They will leverage the crisis to push their particular agendas. But, with a looming financial disaster and continuing commitment by the powerful in society to never-ending consumption, uninhibited greed, and systematic inequality as the only way to manage the world, this is probably not the last time London will burn.

http://www.newint.org/blog/2011/08/09/london-riots-consumerism-society/

Utterly depressing. I'm glad it's raining here that should put a damper on any notions about uprisings in Glasgow.

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The criminologists and sociologists have plenty to say on "What turns people into looters."

"Prof John Pitts, a criminologist who advises several London local authorities on young people and gangs, says some of those taking the lead in the looting will be known to the authorities, while others are swept along.Prof Pitts says riots are complex events and cannot be explained away as "just thuggery"...

They have to be seen against the backdrop of "growing discontents" about youth unemployment, education opportunities and income disparities.

He says most of the rioters are from poor estates who have no "stake in conformity", who have nothing to lose.

"They have no career to think about. They are not 'us'. They live out there on the margins, enraged, disappointed, capable of doing some awful things."

You would imagine that he's expressed some of these opinions to the local authorities that he advises. Pity he's not got the ear of parliament.

"For law-abiding citizens setting fire to a bus or stealing from a shop is simply unthinkable. But academics say socio-economic factors cannot be left out of the equation.

Dr Paul Bagguley, a sociologist at the University of Leeds, says young men are usually engaged in confrontation with the police, while looters tend to include young children and women.

"It's very likely that a lot of people stealing the stuff would not have done it before. There's a sense in these situations that the normal rules don't apply."

He says while looting occurs in most riots, it has dominated this week and they could be called the "consumer society riots".

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-14463452

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David Cameron: "Parts of our society are sick."

He better find a cure then. Not happy with Boris, who's looking for more police on the streets.

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David Cameron: "Parts of our society are sick."

He better find a cure then. Not happy with Boris, who's looking for more police on the streets.

Spot on David, that part of our society that thinks its okay to pay themselves millions while calling on wage restraint for workers and absolute penury for the poorest and weakest in society.

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It's circumstantial in my view and I can't get too concerned about it. I am more concerned about the bigger issues

Excuse me for harping on Harper, but I need to ask, is the picture big enough for you to be concerned yet ?

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Spot on David, that part of our society that thinks its okay to pay themselves millions while calling on wage restraint for workers and absolute penury for the poorest and weakest in society.

They do make you sick, samsc.

It'll be interesting to see what happens with regard to reduction in police numbers. Could be some more job creation in that department but wouldn't count on it and certainly wouldn't count on more community development workers.

As the Police Federation warned of a "catastrophe" if similar riots erupted after the cuts were introduced, a senior government source said the Home Office would be advised to take a fresh look at its plans to cut £2bn from police funding over the next few years. "The optics have changed," the source told the Guardian.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/10/england-riots-police-birmingham-dead

Tragic about the young Asians killed when attempting to defend their business.

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Alex Salmond has apparently objected to the term UK riots being used - claiming this was an unfair description as there was no such phenomenon in Scotland.

"His officials contacted 24-hour news channels to demand they withdraw captions that used the UK term, with the BBC agreeing to replace it with “England riots”.

But opposition parties accused the Scottish National Party leader of presenting the “worst face of nationalism” by taking satisfaction from problems in other parts of Britain.

They also questioned whether Scottish society was less prone to violence as Mr Salmond has recently convened a summit to tackle a plague of football-related disorder and sectarianism. Murder rates are 60 per cent higher north of the Border, according to official figures.

Reference is also made in the article to the "running battles" with police at the stramash in Kelvingrove a couple of months back. An unpleasant event but certainly not of the same nature nor scale as what we've seen in England the past few nights.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/scottish-politics/8693806/UK-riots-Alex-Salmond-accused-of-gloating-over-English-violence.html

I doubt Salmond was 'gloating', as has been claimed, and pretty sure that like some of the rest of us he would be welcoming the heavy rain. Wish we could send that down south along with our polis. It would probably be more effective than anything else in curtailing the insurrection.

Although there has been some debate as to whether such riots could happen in Scotland?

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Alex Salmond has apparently objected to the term UK riots being used - claiming this was an unfair description as there was no such phenomenon in Scotland.

Reference is also made in the article to the "running battles" with police at the stramash in Kelvingrove a couple of months back. An unpleasant event but certainly not of the same nature nor scale as what we've seen in England the past few nights.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/scottish-politics/8693806/UK-riots-Alex-Salmond-accused-of-gloating-over-English-violence.html

I doubt Salmond was 'gloating', as has been claimed, and pretty sure that like some of the rest of us he would be welcoming the heavy rain. Wish we could send that down south along with our polis. It would probably be more effective than anything else in curtailing the insurrection.

Although there has been some debate as to whether such riots could happen in Scotland?

I used to work in the prison service and we had roof top demonstrations and riots galore during a rather scary period in the 80s. But even at the height of the tensions generally no one scaled the roofs to protest from october to April :)

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Excuse me for harping on Harper, but I need to ask, is the picture big enough for you to be concerned yet ?

How imaginative to comment on a post that was written before the escalation, Maggs. :)

I don't know about you but I am getting bored with the usual internet chatter from people who know nothing about the situation and contribute sod all to the solution. When the internet and media chatter has died down these probelms will still exist, unless something is done. I know good parents who vhave lost their kids to gang culture. I work with community leaders and mentors who work on inner city estates and prisons to try and get these kids to make better choices about their lives. There arre people who have been concerend for a long time, not just for our own kids but for their friends and young people in general. Youth culture is stil the is the bigger issue, IMV.

Granted, those of us who are not caught up in these troubles and who have our young people safely at home, can pour our moral outrage, affrontery, and our oh so humble opinions into cyberspace but this society needs to take a long hard look at what these rioters are reflecting back to them and the underlying causes for this behaviour.

Robust policing seems to have brought the situation under control in London. Hundreds of rioters have been arrested and are already appearing in court. At last! someone is providing boundaries, strucuture and consequences. We have the State acting as parent. Now, let's see Cameron do the right thing to get these young people back on track by reversing some of the worse social policy we have seen since the Thatcher years.

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How imaginative to comment on a post that was written before the escalation, Maggs. :)

I don't know about you but I am getting bored with the usual internet chatter from people who know nothing about the situation and contribute sod all to the solution. When the internet and media chatter has died down these probelms will still exist, unless something is done. I know good parents who vhave lost their kids to gang culture. I work with community leaders and mentors who work on inner city estates and prisons to try and get these kids to make better choices about their lives. There arre people who have been concerend for a long time, not just for our own kids but for their friends and young people in general. Youth culture is stil the is the bigger issue, IMV.

Granted, those of us who are not caught up in these troubles and who have our young people safely at home, can pour our moral outrage, affrontery, and our oh so humble opinions into cyberspace but this society needs to take a long hard look at what these rioters are reflecting back to them and the underlying causes for this behaviour.

Robust policing seems to have brought the situation under control in London. Hundreds of rioters have been arrested and are already appearing in court. At last! someone is providing boundaries, strucuture and consequences. We have the State acting as parent. Now, let's see Cameron do the right thing to get these young people back on track by reversing some of the worse social policy we have seen since the Thatcher years.

I aggree with everything you say above, allways have done. The reason I asked the question has nothing to do with imagination and everything to do with being aware of how things would escalate. I was concerned from the first riot and had in an inclination it would get worse, how you could not baffles me.

This says it all as far as I am concerned http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2023898/London-riots-Red-sky-night-Tottenhams-alight.html

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I aggree with everything you say above, allways have done. The reason I asked the question has nothing to do with imagination and everything to do with being aware of how things would escalate. I was concerned from the first riot and had in an inclination it would get worse, how you could not baffles me.

I think everyone has been shocked at the scale of the uprisings, Maggs.

Still the PM is pretty confident that no more police are required.

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Alex Salmond has apparently objected to the term UK riots being used - claiming this was an unfair description as there was no such phenomenon in Scotland.

Reference is also made in the article to the "running battles" with police at the stramash in Kelvingrove a couple of months back. An unpleasant event but certainly not of the same nature nor scale as what we've seen in England the past few nights.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/scottish-politics/8693806/UK-riots-Alex-Salmond-accused-of-gloating-over-English-violence.html

I doubt Salmond was 'gloating', as has been claimed, and pretty sure that like some of the rest of us he would be welcoming the heavy rain. Wish we could send that down south along with our polis. It would probably be more effective than anything else in curtailing the insurrection.

Although there has been some debate as to whether such riots could happen in Scotland?

Speaking on BBC Radio Scotland, Salmond said:

"We know we have a different society in Scotland, and one of my frustrations was to see this being described on BBC television and Sky as riots in the UK. Well, until such time as we do have a riot in Scotland, then we've seen riots in London and across English cities. It's actually unhelpful to see them inaccurately presented, because one of the dangers we face in Scotland is copycat action."

His stance was backed by Scottish National party MSPs, as well as bloggers, who claimed that Welsh and Northern Irish citizens would share the irritation.

Not great for tourism either. The broad brush puts a blight on the whole of the UK. The stramash in Kelvingrove was reported world wide and was not a good image of our city but so far no riots.

I think Salmond has genuine concerns and is not simply "scoring cheap political points".

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/10/england-riots-salmond-uk-headlines

Discussions on television and in the social media have pointed to various reasons why there is no history of similar riots in Scotland.

* There are not the same race issues.

* Our most deprived neighbourhoods are often a long way away from the city centre.

* Police are more authoritarian.

* Our underclass are too ill from drug use to run about the streets.

* There is a stronger community identity among the Scots in general.

* Our society tends to be more 'conservative'.

Any thoughts?

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Blimey. Alongside calls to stop the benefits of anyone convicted of rioting, now we have calls to evict them from their homes. I'm not sure how I feel about this. The people involved in the riots are amongst some of the poorest, most disaffected people in society, should we be taking away the roof over their heads and the only means of income they have? Will this not make them even angrier and cause more trouble, as many people seem to think the riots have stemmed from feelings of disfranchisement and non-inclusion.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-14489272

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Although a great admirer of Alex Salmond, I think this statement was disappointing and hopefully not premature. To nit pick about national identity in the middle of a crisis is very small, IMV. Although we are all part of the UK, I think most people know that London isn't in Scotland and didn't need that pointing out to them. :rolleyes:

So why couldn't this happen in Scotland? The most obvious factor to me is Scotland's socialist policies. I may have the hump with Alex Salmond right now over his UK statement but in general, his administration promotes and resources policies which create a strong sense of social cohesion.

Racism is a major factor. Black on black crime and gang culture is another. The sheer size of the population creates a mass to be reckoned with and England is in the full grip of a Tory Government. I would say the last factor is reason enough...

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