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New Parliament in May

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And yet many want to stick with the status quo that after 300 years has delivered the above?

That is one way of putting it Sam and I am interested in being brought up to speed and hearing about different opinions.

In the 300 years it has not been all bad. There was an awful lot achieved after the war and there have been a lot of mistakes too. Once upon a time Glasgow was a thriving industrial city with the Clydeside full of apprentices and skilled tradesmen. It was not so long ago that people were happy to go into hospital and not worried about getting infections. They could also have a house call from the doctor. There were plenty of council houses. Although some major errors. In Drumchapel now the co-operative is even closing.

Harper has made a very good point. SNP need to spell out their strategy. I think that some people are open to being convinced.

You seem to think that caution is the same as being a fearty.

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People choose to believe what justifies their stance.

Now, that's the first thing you've said that I fully agree with Sam :blink:

Latest poll of polls suggests a 13 seat gain for the SNP and 60 seats. Seems people are being convinced.

Whether it's the SNP or anyone else, there are all kinds of reasons why people choose to vote for a particular party. The mistake that so many SNP supporters make is to assume that every vote for the SNP is a vote for independence. My friend up in Moray for example votes SNP at the Westminster elections simply because she thinks their individual candidate (Angus Robertson I think) has proved himself to be a a very good MP and worked hard in his constituency. She would NEVER vote for independence. The current polls do not take account of those who are still undecided how to vote, and even if the SNP are returned with an increased majority that in no way "proves" that every person who voted for them did so because they support independence. I have always voted for the individual candidate in elections, regardless of the party

As Rory has pointed out, the current problems in parts of the country with unemployment have not existed for 300 years - maybe you need to read a bit more history Sam, other than just about William Wallace :unsure:

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In the 300 years it has not been all bad. There was an awful lot achieved after the war and there have been a lot of mistakes too. Once upon a time Glasgow was a thriving industrial city with the Clydeside full of apprentices and skilled tradesmen.

There was indeed, using 100 year old equipment and wondering why they were losing business hand over fist.

Harper has made a very good point. SNP need to spell out their strategy. I think that some people are open to being convinced.

They have done so, several times

You seem to think that caution is the same as being a fearty.

Caution is one thing, inertia from fear is another. Ask most people who want to remain in the Uk why, and I can guarantee the real reasons will be as follows:-

a) how would Scotland cope with the existing benefits system

:unsure: some jingoistic nonsense linked to empire

c) companies will leave Scotland because, well because

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Now, that's the first thing you've said that I fully agree with Sam :blink:

Whether it's the SNP or anyone else, there are all kinds of reasons why people choose to vote for a particular party. The mistake that so many SNP supporters make is to assume that every vote for the SNP is a vote for independence. My friend up in Moray for example votes SNP at the Westminster elections simply because she thinks their individual candidate (Angus Robertson I think) has proved himself to be a a very good MP and worked hard in his constituency. She would NEVER vote for independence. The current polls do not take account of those who are still undecided how to vote, and even if the SNP are returned with an increased majority that in no way "proves" that every person who voted for them did so because they support independence. I have always voted for the individual candidate in elections, regardless of the party

As Rory has pointed out, the current problems in parts of the country with unemployment have not existed for 300 years - maybe you need to read a bit more history Sam, other than just about William Wallace :unsure:

oh dear, well since you know aomeone who votes SNP but doesn't want independence that's that then.

I have read plenty of history, my yearning for independence is based on the present and the future.

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oh dear, well since you know aomeone who votes SNP but doesn't want independence that's that then.

:lol: :lol: :lol: I just knew that would be your reply - which is why I wrote

My friend up in Moray for example

In other words, I was just using my friend as one example to illustrate the fact that not everyone who votes for a particular party necessarily agrees with everything that party stands for. also that fact that a great many people who vote do not have a firm allegiance to any particular party. If all the voters who are saying they will vote / have voted SNP were all in favour of independence, then polls that ask specifically about independence would not be coming up with the result that something like only 1 in 4 Scots are in favour.

I have read plenty of history, my yearning for independence is based on the present and the future.

You are also (presumably) reading my posts, but you certainly show little signs of understanding the points I am attempting to make. I'm assuming that's because either I'm not making my points very well, or you are not taking the time to read them properly, but are simply latching on to certain sentences that fit in with your preconceptions of the mindset of people who do not support independence. If the latter, then perhaps that has also coloured your reading of the history books ;)

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:lol: :lol: :lol: I just knew that would be your reply - which is why I wrote

In other words, I was just using my friend as one example to illustrate the fact that not everyone who votes for a particular party necessarily agrees with everything that party stands for. also that fact that a great many people who vote do not have a firm allegiance to any particular party. If all the voters who are saying they will vote / have voted SNP were all in favour of independence, then polls that ask specifically about independence would not be coming up with the result that something like only 1 in 4 Scots are in favour.

You are also (presumably) reading my posts, but you certainly show little signs of understanding the points I am attempting to make. I'm assuming that's because either I'm not making my points very well, or you are not taking the time to read them properly, but are simply latching on to certain sentences that fit in with your preconceptions of the mindset of people who do not support independence. If the latter, then perhaps that has also coloured your reading of the history books ;)

Perhaps if you made your points backed up with evidence I would take them more seriously :)

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Actually Sam, I think Borderlass has outlined her views very well. The people of Scotland deserve a strategy for Independence, in order to take the issue seriously - and that is from someone who supports Independence. smile.gif

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Actually Sam, I think Borderlass has outlined her views very well. The people of Scotland deserve a strategy for Independence, in order to take the issue seriously - and that is from someone who supports Independence. smile.gif

Thank you Harper :lol: While not a supporter of independence myself, I am certainly open to listening to intelligent debate on both sides. To date, I'm certainly not convinced by anything I've heard from the SNP.

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Thank you Harper smile.gif While not a supporter of independence myself, I am certainly open to listening to intelligent debate on both sides. To date, I'm certainly not convinced by anything I've heard from the SNP.

I am a supporter of maximising choice, control and indpendence for all countries within the Union, based on growth, development and sustainabiity. I applaud and admire the SNP for leading on the issue of Independence and believe that if it is better for Scotland to stand alone then Scotland should. If the SNP cannot outline a future strategy that helps people vote for Independence then they haven't done their job, IMO. smile.gif

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Actually Sam, I think Borderlass has outlined her views very well. The people of Scotland deserve a strategy for Independence, in order to take the issue seriously - and that is from someone who supports Independence. smile.gif

her views are based on groundless supposition. As I said before, put up the evidence to support your points.

I have now said three times the SNP have already provided an analysis that proves Scotland can finance itself. What more do you want?

http://www.snp.org/node/17120

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her views are based on groundless supposition. As I said before, put up the evidence to support your points.

I have now said three times the SNP have already provided an analysis that proves Scotland can finance itself. What more do you want?

http://www.snp.org/node/17120

A strategy... as I have said before.

And you didn't answer my question. What is the long term plans for the SNP beyond Independence?

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A strategy... as I have said before.

And you didn't answer my question. What is the long term plans for the SNP beyond Independence?

A strategy for what. Government for the next 5 years (manifesto), independence or post independence? You do know business plans beyond 3 years are fanciful and beyond 5 years are just for economists' musings.

This is an excellent document to read

www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~snpsoc/talking%20independence.doc

Post Independence the SNP will have to decide what it wants to do. The SNP has both a right and left wing, will they choose to remain together in a single party or will they find better use of their energies supporting Scottish political parties more akin to their leanings, I don't know.

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her views are based on groundless supposition. As I said before, put up the evidence to support your points.

I have now said three times the SNP have already provided an analysis that proves Scotland can finance itself. What more do you want?

http://www.snp.org/node/17120

And that's your "evidence" Sam :lol: A bit of blurb on the SNP's website with a few figures bandied around and the opinion of Linda Fabiani ? That is exactly what I mean about a "simplistic" view of independence. Perhaps the UK economy might have performed better if it had not needed to bail out the Scottish banks who got themselves into such a mess?

I am not an economist and freely admit that I know nothing of these matters, but it seems to me that there must surely be a bit of problem in assuming that Scotland's financial position just now when it is so tied up with the Union would be the exact same if it was independent :lol: And money that is spent by the UK economy also benefits Scotland? As I said, I'm no economist but I would need a more independent analysis of these figures before being prepared to accept Ms Fabiai's interpretation of them. And regardless of how much money Scotland does or does not have, unless there is a strategy for how the country would be governed and sensible financial policies in place, then any sums of money could quickly go down the drain.

I also find the SNP position on defence in the event of indpendence less than clear - they appear to be hoping that England will retain their bases here in Scotland, tho' why an English government would choose to do so is not at all clear to me. Salmond has already lobbied Westminster over defence cuts and keeping Trident-related jobs in Scotland etc. Kinloss is already earmarked for closure and that will decimate the local community - RAF people (mainly English) and their families are integral to the schools, community facilities, churches etc in the surrounding towns and villages. The future of Lossiemouth and Leuchars is still in the balance - I'm not so familiar with them, but I would imagine that it's a similar situation to Kinloss.

I appreciate that you will not consider that to "evidence" and I make no claims that it is - however, I do have real question to which I have never seen any satisfactory answers from anyone in the SNP. Neither have I seen any "supporting evidence" from anyone from the SNP who thinks that the English bases will just remain in Scotland in the event of independence.

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And that's your "evidence" Sam :angry: A bit of blurb on the SNP's website with a few figures bandied around and the opinion of Linda Fabiani ? That is exactly what I mean about a "simplistic" view of independence. Perhaps the UK economy might have performed better if it had not needed to bail out the Scottish banks who got themselves into such a mess?...

I also find the SNP position on defence in the event of indpendence less than clear - they appear to be hoping that England will retain their bases here in Scotland, tho' why an English government would choose to do so is not at all clear to me. Salmond has already lobbied Westminster over defence cuts and keeping Trident-related jobs in Scotland etc. Kinloss is already earmarked for closure and that will decimate the local community - RAF people (mainly English) and their families are integral to the schools, community facilities, churches etc in the surrounding towns and villages. The future of Lossiemouth and Leuchars is still in the balance - I'm not so familiar with them, but I would imagine that it's a similar situation to Kinloss.

I appreciate that you will not consider that to "evidence" and I make no claims that it is - however, I do have real question to which I have never seen any satisfactory answers from anyone in the SNP. Neither have I seen any "supporting evidence" from anyone from the SNP who thinks that the English bases will just remain in Scotland in the event of independence.

I haven't a clue about the bases, borderlass, but there are plenty of jobs I would rather see than those tied to Trident.

Seems to be a bit of confusion regarding jobs altogether. Research by the Centre for Public Policy for Regions (CPPR), attached to Glasgow University, has claimed that planned 2%-a-year savings put forward in the SNP and Labour manifestos were likely to produce job cuts of 7%. That represents between 20,000 to 25,000 in Scotland over the next few years, excluding health.

However, "Scotland's main party leaders have refused to say how many public sector jobs may be cut in the coming years, as they faced each other in a TV debate."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-13255731

Salmond disputed the findings of the report and argued that:

"There haven't been a significant number of job loses across the public service in Scotland."

I'm not sure that's correct.

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Everything crossed for an SNP win... depsite no having a set oot strategy on the Independence ishoo. tongue.gif

I am volunteering for the London call in later and am just waiting for somebody to "activate" me laugh.gif

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Great night for the SNP, labour strongholds falling, Tories being wiped out and lib dems losing deposits.

Go SNP, 5 more years :):(

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The prediciton is for 70 seats. biggrin.gif

Now they can develop a strategy for Independence and hold the bliddy referendum! tongue.gif

God, the SNP has got absolutely stuffed! The Coalition is dead in the water.

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What a shake up. SNP have romped home and looks like they'll have a majority in Holyrood. Some big hitters and very experienced Labour politicians have been hammered including Andy Kerr, Pauline McNeill, Tom McCabe, Frank McAveety and Karen Gillon. Iain Gray has just scraped through.

Des McNulty has lost his seat in Clydebank to SNP's candidate Gil Paterson.

In Anniesland another SNP win with Labour's Bill Butler losing by 7 votes to Bill Kidd, SNP.

In our constituency, Maryhill and Springburn, there was a Labour win for Patricia Ferguson.

Labour took the seat from the Tories in Dumfries.

They've also done well in Wales if they get to 30 will be able to govern on their own at the Welsh Assembly.

However, the big story is the huge SNP advance.

The story goes that yhy seem to have benefited from defection of Lib Dems supporters but don't think that's the whole picture.

In England the Lib Dems have been hit very badly with their worse results for 30 years. Labour have done reasonably well England (just heard Harriet Harman say they had more votes than any of the other parties) and the Tories have got off fairly lightly. Nick Clegg looks devastated, wonder if he'll pack it in.

Scotland's Election Results Unfold

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Ed Balls take on the SNP success quite interesting. He says the SNP gains as a protest against Westminster and reckons that many of those supporting SNP this time round would not be interested in Independence. He reminds viewers that Salmond previously aimed to make Scotland another Ireland or Iceland and that thoughts of this now would send voters in quite another direction.

Stirling just had massive win for SNP.

I need to drag myself away from these debates and get on with my day.:)

I feel sorry for Nick Clegg. Cameron home and dry and more smug than ever.

According to Jeremy Vine the share for the parties over whole of the UK: Labour in the lead with 37% with Conservatives just behind at 35% Lib Dems way down at 15% and Others 13%

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I have to say, I am finding some of the new SNP converts posting on the internet highly amusing. The ink is bearly dry on some of their membership forms and they are acting like the Party faithful... rolleyes.giflaugh.gif

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Great news about Galloway. I can't abide him, regardless of which side of the border he is working.

He's a bit smarmy and his Big Brother escapade was a cringe but you need a few butt kicking folk. I don't know where they are?

Kirkcaldy just announced SNP victory so that's the majority. I'm not sure that is a good thing but know there will be much joy. He's got the 65.

Only one wee Green. I would like more.

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