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harper

Scottish Independence ...

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I understand G12 and others dislike of Mr Salmond, they fear him you see, they are craven. He is a politician of stature, with his faults, but he is passionate about our country and most importantly, he is accurate. .........................

I don't dislike Salmond. Somewhere on the thread I have described him as a politician of standing.

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I've been in Norn Ireland too long - it took me a few posts before I realised you were talking about the Union of Scotland and England and not the Unionists. :angry:

how will Scotland fund total independance?

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Thanks for that, Harper. Expat Scots tend to be reflexive nationalists, but we are not exposed to the hard facts and clear arguments every day. A list of pros and cons would be useful, as someone already said.

Salmond is a brilliant politician who usually wipes the floor with his debate opponents. He's the man to get it done, IMO. But I'm increasingly baffled by his strategy, and therefore his intentions, with regard to independence. What is going on inside that melon of his?

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Thanks for that, Harper. Expat Scots tend to be reflexive nationalists, but we are not exposed to the hard facts and clear arguments every day. A list of pros and cons would be useful, as someone already said.

Salmond is a brilliant politician who usually wipes the floor with his debate opponents. He's the man to get it done, IMO. But I'm increasingly baffled by his strategy, and therefore his intentions, with regard to independence. What is going on inside that melon of his?

I find Salmon's strategy odd and wonder how you ever decide when is the best time to have a Referendum.

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Thanks for that, Harper. Expat Scots tend to be reflexive nationalists, but we are not exposed to the hard facts and clear arguments every day. A list of pros and cons would be useful, as someone already said.

Salmond is a brilliant politician who usually wipes the floor with his debate opponents. If he can't get it done, nobody can, IMO. But I'm increasingly baffled by his strategy, and therefore his intentions, with regard to union. What is going on inside that melon of his?

I'm not too sure, which is why I posed the question. My feeling is that there are many Scots, home and abroad, who will feel let down by this announcement, especially in the light of Cameron's announcement. The whole thing has a feel of a damp sqib about it and I fear that without a clear back up strategy, Salmond will not be taken seriously again on the issue. That said, I am as much at arms length as you and was relying on some home knowledge to fill in the gaps. sad.gif

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I've been in Norn Ireland too long - it took me a few posts before I realised you were talking about the Union of Scotland and England and not the Unionists. :angry:

how will Scotland fund total independance?

Scotland in a net contributor to the UK, i.e. we get less money back in block grant than is raised by Scotland for UK Treasury

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I'm not too sure, which is why I posed the question. My feeling is that there are many Scots, home and abroad, who will feel let down by this announcement, especially in the light of Cameron's announcement. The whole thing has a feel of a damp sqib about it and I fear that without a clear back up strategy, Salmond will not be taken seriously again on the issue. That said, I am as much at arms length as you and was relying on some home knowledge to fill in the gaps. sad.gif

This sounds more like wishful thinking harper. Salmond is no fool, why should he spurn an opportunity for independence due to poor timing. I cannot believe the unionist mentality that is 'fantastic we are royally financialy screwed, where's your independence now'.

If it wasn't such a pathetic stance it would be laughable.

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This sounds more like wishful thinking harper. Salmond is no fool, why should he spurn an opportunity for independence due to poor timing. I cannot believe the unionist mentality that is 'fantastic we are royally financialy screwed, where's your independence now'.

If it wasn't such a pathetic stance it would be laughable.

I don't think anyone is saying Salmond is a fool, Sam. However, as a party member, I think it is reasonable question to ask. smile.gif

I think it is playing into the hands of the unionists not to have a clear postion on this and future strategy. Salmond campaigned hard on the basis of Referendum and I think it is highly damaging to the credibility of the SNP not to follow through.

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Policies created and enacted by Scots for Scots. We get to decide what kind of society we want for our people.

Do you mean like Labour "decided" for us for the last 50 years up here?

We would be able to fully harness the benefits of our natural resources for our people.

Give some examples please?

We would be better placed to realise the potential and creativity of our Universities and our people for our people

Again some examples please and dont start on about logie baird/macintosh/tarmacadam!

Simple self determination, we would not as a nation be fighting wars in Iraq or Afghanistan, because we have some colonial baggage.

Dont be too sure,plent would want to invade ingerlund and give them a kicking! :angry:

We would be equals in any discussions at an EU and International level; no more for instance would our fishing rights be bargained off the table.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: independance in europe...an oxymoron if ever there was one

A Scottish Constitution, for the people, by the people, ach you know the rest.

Aye unforunately we do!

Self responsibility, only when we face up to the benefits and ramifications of our own decisions will we be able to fully develop as a people. Right now, we are nowt but unionist cattle. We as a people are managed.

And we will be managed by Brussels,its happening already for the uk!

I support Independance but mibbes the reason why a lot of folk are shying away from it is the bunch of diddies what have and are running Scotland at the moment!

And not cos of cowardice like what you are slandering dissenters with! :)

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I don't think anyone is saying Salmond is a fool, Sam. However, as a party member, I think it is reasonable question to ask. smile.gif

I think it is playing into the hands of the unionists not to have a clear postion on this and future strategy. Salmond campaigned hard on the basis of Referendum and I think it is highly damaging to the credibility of the SNP not to follow through.

The strategy is simple, Independence for Scotland. The timing is unclear, this isn't a man the barricades decision, its a political one, its to be a friendly split. Self determination takes courage, change takes courage; the people of Scotland currently face several future unknowns - their jobs and national finances being the two that are front and centre. Setting out on our own is probably right now one too many unknowns for many frightened people to want to consider. Wonder who has been doing the frightening?

Salmond is correct to consider delaying any referendum on whether we should have a referendum, and whilst this is being considered why would he announce a new strategy until that process of consideration has been gone through?

Going forward we need to knock down the bogeymen created by the unionists to show our people that independence will be both achievable and a new enlightenment for us as a nation.

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I support Independance but mibbes the reason why a lot of folk are shying away from it is the bunch of diddies what have and are running Scotland at the moment!

And not cos of cowardice like what you are slandering dissenters with! :lol:

Do you mean like Labour "decided" for us for the last 50 years up here?

No, I mean exactly as I said, policies decided by Scots for an independent Scotland free from South East baggage and direct influence

Give some examples please?

oil & gas obviously, renewable energies of wind, wave and tidal (we can create 4 times more energy than we as a country can consume), food & drink (Scotland accounts for 25% of all UK exports from this sector)

Again some examples please and dont start on about logie baird/macintosh/tarmacadam!

Scotland's universities are world class in many fields, last year we outperformed the US Ivy league universities. In new technologies, such as life sciences (translational medicine, stem cells) Scotland's universities are world leaders. In Chemical sciences we lead the field in areas such as fermentation technology (Heriot Watt Uni) and continuous processing technology.

We would be equals in any discussions at an EU and International level; no more for instance would our fishing rights be bargained off the table.

independance in europe...an oxymoron if ever there was one

It would be for the Scottish people to decide if we wish to remain part of the EU or indeed if we wished greater integration. Would we remain part of Nato, who knows (please no pedantic nonsense about its the UK that's in the EU/Nato)

A Scottish Constitution, for the people, by the people, ach you know the rest.

Aye unforunately we do!

Are you against the concept of a constitution?

Self responsibility, only when we face up to the benefits and ramifications of our own decisions will we be able to fully develop as a people. Right now, we are nowt but unionist cattle. We as a people are managed.

And we will be managed by Brussels,its happening already for the uk!

The UK is already managed and owned lock, stock and barrel by big business

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Scotland in a net contributor to the UK, i.e. we get less money back in block grant than is raised by Scotland for UK Treasury

it was always the funding that put me off independence way back in the 70's when I was a political dodderer (back to that standing again) :lol:

If it's down to rearranging the taxes thats well and good if it also relies on things like new energy resources - thats very expensive and of course we would still be burdened by all the bureaucracy of the EU and probably more besides.

Anyone provide a link to funding an indepedent Scotland - in laymans terms?

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it was always the funding that put me off independence way back in the 70's when I was a political dodderer (back to that standing again) :lol:

If it's down to rearranging the taxes thats well and good if it also relies on things like new energy resources - thats very expensive and of course we would still be burdened by all the bureaucracy of the EU and probably more besides.

Anyone provide a link to funding an indepedent Scotland - in laymans terms?

There's a lot of smoke n mirrors about this subject. This gives a view (one I agree with obviously)

http://www.realmofscotland.com/economy/

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The strategy is simple, Independence for Scotland. The timing is unclear, this isn't a man the barricades decision, its a political one, its to be a friendly split. Self determination takes courage, change takes courage; the people of Scotland currently face several future unknowns - their jobs and national finances being the two that are front and centre. Setting out on our own is probably right now one too many unknowns for many frightened people to want to consider. Wonder who has been doing the frightening?

Salmond is correct to consider delaying any referendum on whether we should have a referendum, and whilst this is being considered why would he announce a new strategy until that process of consideration has been gone through?

Going forward we need to knock down the bogeymen created by the unionists to show our people that independence will be both achievable and a new enlightenment for us as a nation.

Sam, that's a slogan, not a strategy and that's what irks me.

There is nothing friendly about some of the rhetoric .

The whole country faces unknown futures, Sam. If this is a time for the Union to pull together then maybe it is time to come out clearly and say so?

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Sam, that's a slogan, not a strategy and that's what irks me.

There is nothing friendly about some of the rhetoric .

The whole country faces unknown futures, Sam. If this is a time for the Union to pull together then maybe it is time to come out clearly and say so?

Its not a slogan its the ultimate objective which is what strategy should feed from. Unfriendly rhetoric where? Since the 1970s the people of Scotland have been bare faced lied to by successive unionist Governments, how does that grab people as unfriendly rhetoric?

Its nothing to do with the union pulling together, its to do with people hunkering down and looking to survive. I remain ever hopeful that if this Tory Government gets to go full term it will be the catalyst for the end of this damndable union.

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Its not a slogan its the ultimate objective which is what strategy should feed from.

Without a strategy, it's a slogan, IMO.

Unfriendly rhetoric where? Since the 1970s the people of Scotland have been bare faced lied to by successive unionist Governments, how does that grab people as unfriendly rhetoric?

And how does that translate in to your "friendly spilt?"

Its nothing to do with the union pulling together, its to do with people hunkering down and looking to survive. I remain ever hopeful that if this Tory Government gets to go full term it will be the catalyst for the end of this damndable union.

I understand that, Sam but I have to say, in the face of a Tory Government, an unpopular war, threats to the Scottish economy and a clear message of resistance, if these are not favourable conditions to canvas the will of the Scottish people, I am not sure what needs to be in place. Actually, I do .. it seems to me that economic stability and future growth is the key factor, the only factor in fact.

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I understand that, Sam but I have to say, in the face of a Tory Government, an unpopular war, threats to the Scottish economy and a clear message of resistance, if these are not favourable conditions to canvas the will of the Scottish people, I am not sure what needs to be in place. Actually, I do .. it seems to me that economic stability and future growth is the key factor, the only factor in fact.

spot on, we have been spun 40 years of lies that 'we cannae afford to be independent'. Of all the insulting nonsense.

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.....................

Salmond is correct to consider delaying any referendum on whether we should have a referendum, and whilst this is being considered why would he announce a new strategy until that process of consideration has been gone through?

..........................

I've missed something. Is current SNP policy to have a referendum on having a referendum? Why stop there? Why not have a referendum on having a referendum on having a referendum or even a referendum on having a referendum on having a referendum?

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I've missed something. Is current SNP policy to have a referendum on having a referendum? Why stop there? Why not have a referendum on having a referendum on having a referendum or even a referendum on having a referendum on having a referendum?

Oh, welcome back, G12 - we've missed you. laugh.gif

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I've missed something. Is current SNP policy to have a referendum on having a referendum? Why stop there? Why not have a referendum on having a referendum on having a referendum or even a referendum on having a referendum on having a referendum?

Independence is perversly a reserved matter on which the Scottish Parliament cannot legislate. The Scottish Government would therefore only be in a position to seek the people's views regarding opening negotiations with the UK govt regarding independence.

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Independence is perversly a reserved matter on which the Scottish Parliament cannot legislate. The Scottish Government would therefore only be in a position to seek the people's views regarding opening negotiations with the UK govt regarding independence.

I think Alex Salmond has done a great job in office on everything bar the issue of Independence. The whole thing seems a muddle to me. Even the latest letter to party members, Challenge for Independence, Holyrood 2011 campaign, tells you absolutely nothing on the issue.

"Scotland needs to have the full powers of an independent nation if it is to fully flourish - and with Independence the only limits on what Scotland can achieve are the limits we put on our imagination. " Blah, blah blah... send donation.

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Guest larrytrooper

Independence is perversly a reserved matter on which the Scottish Parliament cannot legislate. The Scottish Government would therefore only be in a position to seek the people's views regarding opening negotiations with the UK govt regarding independence.

Sam,

G12 has the intelligence to know that, he also knows you are correct so he can not argue his position with any authority, so he tries to wind up the "good guys" that is those with the courage to wish for an independent Scotland, willing to try to stand on our own two feet.

As he also thinks the world of Mr Benn, why, when Mr Benn was the minister of oil,did he not suggest the revenues for our oil be fairly divided between Scotland and England ?

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Independence is perversly a reserved matter on which the Scottish Parliament cannot legislate. The Scottish Government would therefore only be in a position to seek the people's views regarding opening negotiations with the UK govt regarding independence.

That still doesn't explain why you feel "Salmond is correct to consider delaying any referendum on whether we should have a referendum...."

Surely one referendum is all it takes. Salmond, or his grandson, marches on Westminster armed with the 'settled will of the Scottish people', Westminster roll over to let him tickle their tummy and it's all over.

Why a referendum on whether we should have a referendum? If Salmond, or anyone, can get Holyrood to go for it - why not just go for it?

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