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Guest tomtscotland

Should he stay or should he go ?

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Great headline Milli!

But unfortunately not the first time.

When George Dubya was first elected he made one of his cronies the ambassador here. I dont know who the guy thought he was but he started telling us that the US considered it would be better if we voted for so & so in our upcoming federal election.

Our then Prime Minister demanded that the ambassador was recalled immediately & cancelled his accreditation. He was virtually told to be "outa town by sundown" Caused a wee bit of a rumpus.

Yet in spite of all their shortcomings when we are in trouble, (bushfires, floods, cyclones etc) the Yanks are always amongst the first people to offer help.

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Guest tomtscotland

An interesting angle on this by the Scottish Human Rights Commision - they argue that these decisions should not be made by politicians and further that actions by the British government have denied Magrahi a fair trial and appeal-

" – the state has a duty to investigate the circumstances and prosecute alleged perpetrators. Here is where the unfulfilled rights of the families meet the unfilled rights of Megrahi. Compassionate release wasn’t recognition of his ‘human rights’; it was due process under Scottish law. His human right was to a fair trial, including his second appeal. But the UK Government has denied both the families of the victims and Megrahi those rights, by its non disclosure of documentation, an order imposed by the Foreign Secretary. By preventing the release of key documents the UK Government has caused unnecessary delay in allowing the appeal to proceed. The length of time taken to attempt to resolve the issue has contributed to the situation we have now reached where Megrahi’s deteriorating health has regrettably brought the appeal process to an end. The UK Government has denied both the relatives of the victims and Megrahi their rights with these actions, and the public interest requires that all material documents are now released."

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Guest tomtscotland

...meanwhile the issue is to be debated today in Holyrood.

The opposition parties have already voiced criticism of this decision with Labour's Iain Gray stating ""If I was First Minister, Megrahi would not be going back to Libya. The decision to release him is wrong....."

I suspect much of this debate will fall into the "mealy mouthed" category and the opposition will seek to gain political points but will lack the moral fortitude to go for a "no confidence" vote.

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Guest tomtscotland

.... meanwhile Gordon Brown is still saying nothing.

I don't believe for a second that the SNP have done any back door deals with Westminster over this - because Salmond would be toast if anything like that came out.

MacAskill's decision seems to be a straightforward one, in line with the law, taken after due process and consideration. It has the high moral stance of compassion. This is in stark contrast to the realpolitik of Labour at Westminster with the likes of Blair , Brown, Mandlesson doing deals with Gaddafi.

Westminster's difficulty is that they occupy the moral low ground :rolleyes:

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.... meanwhile Gordon Brown is still saying nothing.

I don't believe for a second that the SNP have done any back door deals with Westminster over this - because Salmond would be toast if anything like that came out.

MacAskill's decision seems to be a straightforward one, in line with the law, taken after due process and consideration. It has the high moral stance of compassion. This is in stark contrast to the realpolitik of Labour at Westminster with the likes of Blair , Brown, Mandlesson doing deals with Gaddafi.

Westminster's difficulty is that they occupy the moral low ground :rolleyes:

Tamt you give them to much moral grandyoor

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One of the principle aims of any terrorist organisation is to de stabilise the Government of their enemy. By any means.

Judging by this quote from the Times they might be getting a boost in that direction. All this moral high ground stuff is secondary to the fact that the bad guys are winning.....

"Scotland’s government faces a fight for its survival as the furore over its decision to free the Lockerbie bomber escalated last night.

Opposition parties north of the Border are preparing to hold a confidence vote over the decision by Kenny MacAskill, the Scottish Justice Secretary, to free Abdul Baset Ali al-Megrahi. Alex Salmond, the First Minister, has confirmed that he would resign if the Holyrood vote went against him.

The development comes after a weekend of fierce criticism from the United States of the decision on the ground of compassion to return al-Megrahi to Libya, where he was fêted as a hero on his return.

Admiral Mike Mullen, the Chairman of the Pentagon’s Joint Chiefs of Staff, said he was appalled by the freeing of al-Megrahi, echoing the earlier attack by Robert Mueller, the FBI Director, who accused Scotland of “making a mockery of the rule of law” and giving “comfort to terrorists around the world”. Threats by Americans to boycott Scottish goods and services on the back of the al-Megrahi decision are being taken seriously by the British Government. "

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One of the principle aims of any terrorist organisation is to de stabilise the Government of their enemy. By any means.

Judging by this quote from the Times they might be getting a boost in that direction. All this moral high ground stuff is secondary to the fact that the bad guys are winning.....

"Scotland’s government faces a fight for its survival as the furore over its decision to free the Lockerbie bomber escalated last night.

Opposition parties north of the Border are preparing to hold a confidence vote over the decision by Kenny MacAskill, the Scottish Justice Secretary, to free Abdul Baset Ali al-Megrahi. Alex Salmond, the First Minister, has confirmed that he would resign if the Holyrood vote went against him.

The development comes after a weekend of fierce criticism from the United States of the decision on the ground of compassion to return al-Megrahi to Libya, where he was fêted as a hero on his return.

Admiral Mike Mullen, the Chairman of the Pentagon’s Joint Chiefs of Staff, said he was appalled by the freeing of al-Megrahi, echoing the earlier attack by Robert Mueller, the FBI Director, who accused Scotland of “making a mockery of the rule of law” and giving “comfort to terrorists around the world”. Threats by Americans to boycott Scottish goods and services on the back of the al-Megrahi decision are being taken seriously by the British Government. "

Ah fail to see how its giving comfort tae terrorists around ra world.

When hundreds wurr released under ra "good friday" agreement ah didnae see any of these erses shoutin and ballin then.

Jist becoz the USofA and its broon nosin apologists say something, it disnae make it correct, in eithur a factual ur moral manner.

If the USa wants comfort tae terrorists tae stop, perhaps it should look closer tae hame.

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One of the principle aims of any terrorist organisation is to de stabilise the Government of their enemy. By any means.

Judging by this quote from the Times they might be getting a boost in that direction. All this moral high ground stuff is secondary to the fact that the bad guys are winning.....

"Scotland’s government faces a fight for its survival as the furore over its decision to free the Lockerbie bomber escalated last night.

Opposition parties north of the Border are preparing to hold a confidence vote over the decision by Kenny MacAskill, the Scottish Justice Secretary, to free Abdul Baset Ali al-Megrahi. Alex Salmond, the First Minister, has confirmed that he would resign if the Holyrood vote went against him.

The development comes after a weekend of fierce criticism from the United States of the decision on the ground of compassion to return al-Megrahi to Libya, where he was fêted as a hero on his return.

Admiral Mike Mullen, the Chairman of the Pentagon’s Joint Chiefs of Staff, said he was appalled by the freeing of al-Megrahi, echoing the earlier attack by Robert Mueller, the FBI Director, who accused Scotland of “making a mockery of the rule of law” and giving “comfort to terrorists around the world”. Threats by Americans to boycott Scottish goods and services on the back of the al-Megrahi decision are being taken seriously by the British Government. "

Ah fail to see how its giving comfort tae terrorists around ra world.

When hundreds wurr released under ra "good friday" agreement ah didnae see any of these erses shoutin and ballin then.

Jist becoz the USofA and its broon nosin apologists say something, it disnae make it correct, in eithur a factual ur moral manner.

If the USa wants comfort tae terrorists tae stop, perhaps it should look closer tae hame.

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I've been reading a lot over the weekend - as you might have noticed - and I am disturbed by what the ramifications for domestic politics might be if people can't see beyond the media hysteria.

This is a no brainer for Westminster and Washington. They can fart and blame the dog. They're laughing all the way to the bank. The compassionate release device is ideal for this situation. The deals can be done in tents and around the backstairs and all the actors have plausible denial - apart from the poor sap who's going to get tokio in the parly this afternoon.

There's something afoot if the opinions of the friends I spoke to are anything to go by. It's simply this - Scots are by reputation nippy sweeties. I suspect if there's too much posturing in the parly and in the dying newspapers public opinion might swing towards MacAskill and the SNP administration. That's not to say it isn't there already.

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Ah fail to see how its giving comfort tae terrorists around ra world.

When hundreds wurr released under ra "good friday" agreement ah didnae see any of these erses shoutin and ballin then.

Jist becoz the USofA and its broon nosin apologists say something, it disnae make it correct, in eithur a factual ur moral manner.

If the USa wants comfort tae terrorists tae stop, perhaps it should look closer tae hame.

'Ethical foreign policy'. That was a nice idea. Whatever happened?

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Chap in a London boozer overhears a chap at the bar declare: "I know when you go to Scotland you have to use their own Monopoly money.

"But I didn't realise they give you a Get Out of Jail Free card as well."

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Alex Salmond, the First Minister, has confirmed that he would resign if the Holyrood vote went against him.

Brave position to take.

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Chap in a London boozer overhears a chap at the bar declare: "I know when you go to Scotland you have to use their own Monopoly money.

"But I didn't realise they give you a Get Out of Jail Free card as well."

:rolleyes:

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Brave position to take.

Nature of the beast though, he has to say that and support his minister.

Whether or not I agree with the decision itself, I do think they have fallen into one or more traps.

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Interesting op-ed in the Hootsmon.

This month, I wrote to MacAskill warning him that it would be unacceptable on human rights grounds and in legal terms if it was proved that the withdrawal of Megrahi's appeal had been a condition of his release on compassionate grounds.

But I do have my suspicions that a back-room deal was done between the Scottish Government, the UK government and the Libyans that resulted in him dropping his appeal. I do not have first-hand knowledge of this, but my interpretation is based on fact that I know Megrahi and I know how determined Megrahi was to challenge his conviction.

I had several conversations with him when he was in jail in the Netherlands and I also know that this was his attitude because of a letter he wrote to me when he was in prison in Scotland. I also believe that there are many legitimate doubts over the safety of his conviction. So, I just cannot understand why he would have dropped his appeal when it wasn't legally necessary for him to do so.

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Interesting quotes from a Torygraph online item:

Admiral Mike Mullen, the most senior US military officer, said he was "appalled" by the decision to free Megrahi. Mr Mullen, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, said: "This is obviously a political decision."

John Bolton, the former US ambassador to the UN, said of the claims of intervention from Westminster: "You have to wonder if there's not something else involved.”

Mullen is correct. And when did military officers get to make political statements?

Bolton's every word is usually echoed by the Republican media in the US. I wonder if there will be 'questions' like 'what do you mean, John?'

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Whether or not I agree with the decision itself, I do think they have fallen into one or more traps.

Fart and blame the dog. There are no traps as such. It's handy that Scottish law allows compassionate release and handy that a dying man is giving up appeals to prove his innocence.

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Guest tomtscotland

.....................................

There's something afoot if the opinions of the friends I spoke to are anything to go by. It's simply this - Scots are by reputation nippy sweeties. I suspect if there's too much posturing in the parly and in the dying newspapers public opinion might swing towards MacAskill and the SNP administration. That's not to say it isn't there already.

I think public opinion is largely behind MacAskill. This might not be reflected by what you see on telly but most of what I've read or heard on the radio is supportive with quite a few going as far as experssing pride in this decision.

On the radio Scotland phone in this morning nearly everyone supported MacAskiil - there was an extremely ill-informed American media person on slating him but he was the exception.

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Brave position to take.

A brave position indeed, but methinks Eck knows that the ithur parties don't want an elekshun and wullnae huvra stomach furra no confidensh vote.

Ah hope they go furr ano confidensh vote and win, then we may have anithur elekshun and see ra unionsist parties get humped(espeshully ra SCUM party) Efter all thats been a guid few months withoot a change of leader

Ian Gray - an answer tae a kwestshun naebuddie asked

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Guest westtender

Jings Kenny - gonnae PLEASE stop talking in that incantatory fashion... ye sound like a mizzrabull presbyterian meenister daein a funeral.

reverend_im_jolly.jpg

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