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In-Out Referendum

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Pat    0

It's ridiculous that so much time has been consumed in Brussels with a little tinkering around the edges to appease David Cameron, when the focus should be on the hellish situation relating to mass migration.

He'll be emerging 'triumphant'.  I just hope he convinces people to vote to stay in as the protection offered by Europe to Human Rights would be swiftly swept away if the UK is outside.

Scotland seems very firmly in the staying in side so don't know where that will leave us if the rest of Britain decides to pull out.

Apparently, Michael Gove's intelligence – will give great gravitas to the Out campaign. And what is Boris saying?  I rhought he would have been on the News today.

 

 

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harper    0

I think there are many people who will be glad about Cameron's deal without admitting it.  I think the deal will make people more inclined to vote to stay but I am not sure it is enough.  Scotland hasn't experienced the mass migration that have caused problems in other parts of the country and that will undoubtedly affect the vote both sides of the border.  I think we know that if the vote in England goes to a No, Alex Salmond will be campaigning hard for YES2 and maybe that's right - two countries, with very different needs, experiences views and opinions.  I have no idea how I will vote.  I haven't heard enough of the arguments for and against yet.

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firmly committed to remaining part of the EU.  

The migration issue is a handy scapegoat for dreadfully poor government.  london and teh south east would collapse without migrant workers.

outside london and the south east the level of migrant populations is relatively similar

http://www.cream-migration.org/commentsarticle.php?blog=15

 

 

 

 

 

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harper    0

I think the ethnic breakdown of London speaks clearly about the successful integration of migrants and I don't hear Joe Public calling for them to leave or that they are a drain on the economy - only that numbers need to be managed.  Personally, I want to hear about the trade deficit and free trade agreements, etc.  I haven't heard my deal breaker yet.   A new EU/UK partnership would be my preference. Better in, with safeguards, I think but maybe a No vote will be the only thing that will act as leverage for that.  On further thoughts, maybe a new EU Agreement for all member states is the way forward.

 

 

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Pat    0

Nicola Sturgeon again talking sense and highlighting the Europe she wants, with its commitment to safeguarding workers rights etc. Very different concerns from Cameron.

If they come out then Salmond won't have to go on any major mission for another Referendum. I think the people would want it – even the No voters. Many of whom voted to stay in the Union due to fears of not being part of Europe.  It's ironic.

It's all a bit of a farce as George Galloway and Nigel Farage jog along hand in hand and Boris waits for his big reveal. What a sad crew.

I hope they stay in as, and again as Sturgeon points out, the Tories would drive forward their removal of Human Rights an Safeguards that the EU provides.

It's ridiculous that in fighting in the Tory party and the big fear campaign about the migrants has dragged the whole of Europe into this. Shameful really when they should actually be concentrating on the problems of the war in Syria, the Turkish/Russian situation and the massive movement of desperate people into Europe.

It is a fact that migrants to the UK contribute more than they take out.

I kind of suspect that not much will be gained by the paltry tugging at the hems of the benefits system and that given a total inability to set up any efficient systems that that what they think they might save will be even further reduced. 

We are going to be worn out with this – and we've not even heard from Boris yet.  Still, we can be assured that Cameron 'loves Britain' – apart from the disabled, children, the elderly, the mentally ill and anyone who didn't go to Oxbridge.

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harper    0

I don't have much time for extreme views on either side.  Parties to the right point to migration as the bogeyman and many on the left  would have no control over numbers or even have a sensible debate about staggered controls; neither of which is helpful, in my view.

What a ragtag bunch of ejits leading on both sides.  So far, for me, Hilary Benn is the only one who comes across quite well.

It's going to be a long Spring into Summer on this one ....

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Pat    0

Hilary Benn sounds reasonably sensible. Those I most agree with though are Sturgeon and Salmond but you're right, harper, we have different issues in Scotland.  We really need our overseas graduates to stay here for a start. At the moment they need to earn £20,000 – that's still a big starting wage in Scotland so all these educated and able people are kicked out the door, when we need to build our population.  However, It's really important that we stay in. The whisky is protected and we cannot afford to lose our Human Rights law. 

Boris Johnson has now come out.  He even got a can can cut.  Some of them are pathetic Sajid Javid says he is voting to stay 'with regret'. What kind of message is that.

 

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harper    0

Unlike a lot of folk, I find BoJo and his buffoonery really annoying.  That said, I think some of the arguments that are being made for UK self determination are similar to the arguments that are made for Scottish independence.  Many people are fed up being ruled from Strasbourg, in the same way as Scotland wants out from under the control of Westminster.  I am really torn on the issue and will listen to the arguments on both sides.  I think there could be new trade agreements with the UK and many of the UK's biggest exports export to markets far beyond Europe.  I do wonder whether the benefit of subsidies outweigh the huge membership fees.  I just don't know at this stage.  I think Javid's comment is similar to the decision a lot of people made in the Scottish referendum - not happy with the status quo but not ready to make the big shift to yes - or No in this case.   I understand Scotland's need to grow it's population and the ruling about graduates having to leave the country is just stupid. If the UK vote to leave, then Sturgeon will have an almighty task on her hands to negotiate a second referendum, as well as EU membership.  Tough times ahead whatever happens.    

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Boris begins his maneuver for the leadership of the vile party.  Hopefully they will tear themselves apart pver the European issue.  

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harper    0

He has been very inconsistent over his position, that's for sure and it does reek of naked ambition...  Reasons to be in.  Reasons to be out - let's hope for some informed debate .... doesn't hold breath.

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Pat    0

I just feel that the prospect of The Tories having free reign, without the curbs that Europe set on them, is terrifying. They have already tried to remove Human Rights legislation and have no commitment whatsoever to Social Justice or Workers' Rights.

As far as trade agreements go and markets, ninety percent of Scotch Whisky produced is exported to Europed. Whisky is Scotland's leading single export and although worth noting that Scotch whisky is the second biggest net contributor to Britain's balance of trade in goods.   The EU rules also protect the brand. An awful lot of concern about coming out of Europe through Independence related to worries about the whisky industry.

No doubt there will not be a word about it breathed in any of the arguments we hear from the main players.

Still will not be our decision to make. Scotland wields next to no power in the face of England's massive population.

 

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Pat    0

I came across this – very interesting and Jimbo was just saying earlier that tonight the Telly has been very much promoting the Out Campaign:

By

Simon Sweeney,

Lecturer in international political economy, University of York"

Please share - the anti-EU campaign will have the full force of Murdoch's and the other 4 extremist right-wing media billionaires papers whose agenda is to destroy all our human rights.

 

“What did the EU ever do for us?

In the week when the UK's five extremist right-wing media billionaires won their battle to waste our time, money and political capital on a EU referendum, I thought it a good time to post the great letter by Simon Sweeney in the Guardian, which he kindly allowed me to reproduce in my book, "The Prostitute State - How Britain's Democracy has Been Bought":

"What did the EU ever do for us?
Not much, apart from: providing 57% of our trade;
structural funding to areas hit by industrial decline;
clean beaches and rivers;
cleaner air;
lead free petrol;
restrictions on landfill dumping;
a recycling culture;
cheaper mobile charges;
cheaper air travel;
improved consumer protection and food labelling;
a ban on growth hormones and other harmful food additives;
better product safety;
single market competition bringing quality improvements and better industrial performance;
break up of monopolies;
Europe-wide patent and copyright protection;
no paperwork or customs for exports throughout the single market;
price transparency and removal of commission on currency exchanges across the eurozone;
freedom to travel, live and work across Europe;
funded opportunities for young people to undertake study or work placements abroad;
access to European health services;
labour protection and enhanced social welfare;
smoke-free workplaces;
equal pay legislation;
holiday entitlement;
the right not to work more than a 48-hour week without overtime;
strongest wildlife protection in the world;
improved animal welfare in food production;
EU-funded research and industrial collaboration;
EU representation in international forums;
bloc EEA negotiation at the WTO;
EU diplomatic efforts to uphold the nuclear non-proliferation treaty;
European arrest warrant;
cross border policing to combat human trafficking, arms and drug smuggling; counter terrorism intelligence;
European civil and military co-operation in post-conflict zones in Europe and Africa;
support for democracy and human rights across Europe and beyond;
investment across Europe contributing to better living standards and educational, social and cultural capital.
All of this is nothing compared with its greatest achievements: the EU has for 60 years been the foundation of peace between European neighbours after centuries of bloodshed.
It furthermore assisted the extraordinary political, social and economic transformation of 13 former dictatorships, now EU members, since 1980.
Now the union faces major challenges brought on by neoliberal economic globalisation, and worsened by its own systemic weaknesses. It is taking measures to overcome these. We in the UK should reflect on whether our net contribution of £7bn out of total government expenditure of £695bn is good value. We must play a full part in enabling the union to be a force for good in a multi-polar global future.

Simon Sweeney,

Lecturer in international political economy, University of York"

Please share - the anti-EU campaign will have the full force of Murdoch's and the other 4 extremist right-wing media billionaires papers whose agenda is to destroy all our human rights.

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harper    0

Powerful stuff, Pat and thank goodness people just don't rely on the press for information these days.  More and more people are using the internet as their main source of information.

 

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Pat    0

More people do use the internet but that doesn't always mean that the read or access alternative views. 

Most people still get their information from the red tops and from BBC News.    There is very little in the way of investigative journalism, however, there is plenty of research showing how what people here is linked to the aims of big business.  They would dearly love to remove many of the rights people have and the protective controls that stand in the way of their greed.

Things are bad enough with Cameron as PM. I can't imagine how bad it will be if he loses and is replaced by those with an even more right wing agenda.

What's the general feeling you are getting in London with regard to the Yes/No vote, harper?

 

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harper    0

Bit too early to say, Pat, although since BoJo has come out, there are more mutters around the water cooler that we managed before the EU and we will manage again.  I read his piece in the Telegraph yesterday, just to see what the Out campaign will be based on. I think he will lead a credible opposition to the In campaign.  Cameron has his work cut out for him.

 http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/12167643/Boris-Johnson-there-is-only-one-way-to-get-the-change-we-want-vote-to-leave-the-EU.html

The evening Standard this evening is reporting that almost half of London MPs will join the Out campaign.

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Pat    0

That's interesting and scary, harper. I had no idea that there would be so much support for Out. 
This might be the game changer.  I thought it was a hoax!!!

 

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harper    0

I have no idea how it will be called but the content of the Out campaign needs to be considered too and whether the current deal is really worth hanging on to?  The general opinion seems to be that we put in more money in than we get out in subsidies and that it favours the French farmers who keep prices artificially high and isn't there some dissatisfaction over north sea fishing rights?  I am a punter, not a politico.  I want the arguments for and against before I vote. I am not convinced, at this stage that, the Out is necessarily a bad thing...

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Pat    0

For many years I worked at a large anti-poverty project funded by the European Social Fund so saw the benefits of that first hand but as Simon Sweeney points out. It is Europe that protects workers and many of the most vulnerable through Human Rights and Employment Law. 

There are, of course, issues of concern and those are the points that Cameron would have been better advised to address.  However, not for a minute did he want out of Europe, and he's making that very clear now.  It was always all about politics including  the rise of UKIP and the need for Cameron to be seen to be taking action against the supposed migrant-crisis.

I appreciate what you say about the strain on resources in some areas in the South, and perhaps it would be difficult to build more houses when there's not a lot of space, but then no-one is talking about providing social housing or more schools or more teachers. It appears that in the south many children are not taught by qualified teachers.   None of these things will improve if the UK removes itself from Europe.

And it seems to me that those children (300 of them in Calais), many with direct relatives and a right to be in the UK remain with no adult to care for them and no action taken by our government.  God knows Cameron is bad enough.

The problem with the UK is not that it is part of Europe. It is that the Government is amoral and concerned only with the top economic tier of society. We should be fighting tooth and nail to the social justice underpinned by the EU – without it there will be no curbs on their greed.

The situation has a major difference from the Scottish Referendum. One driving force to leave the UK was its diabolical desire to remove human rights and Scotlands ininclination towards a government more concerned with social justice and growth.  Hanging onto EU legislation that benefits the ordinary working man/woman and the environment and a greater inclination than the UK Government to do the right thing is the driving force for many for staying in.

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Veronica    0

They're saying that even the little Cameron achieved might not hold up. Seems like its all about sovereignty and they want out to do exactly what they want with nothing to stop them. I don't like the sound fo that.  In fact it sounds bloody scary when you look at that mob.  Cameron's got himself in a right fix and not that he's any better/  Looks like he's turning into Trump. His behaviour on Prime Ministers Questions was like a snobby arrogant sixth form schoolboy – public school.  His jibe at Corbyn:  'Get a proper suit, do up your tie and sing the National Anthem.'  

 

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harper    0

I am not so sure, Pat.  Isn't the EU referendum similar, in that it is about self determination and not about one party?  I see it as relating to the UK's relationship within the UE, whichever party is in power and under our own jurisdiction, we can retain whatever directives we want, improve on them if necessary and even reinstate any laws or directives that the Tories do dismantle under a future socialist government? - ok, not holding breath on future socialist  government.

The EU seems to work for some but not for others .  Big businesses, farmers etc seem to do well out of it while small businesses seem to struggle to survive under some of the directives.  I also think the perception of the UK as being anti migration is a distortion.  Prior to going into the EU the UK had a long and positive history of migration to this country.  It defies belief and logic for anyone who takes a hard look at the ethnic composition of the UK to say is it anti migration.

It seems to me that we are propping up an EU agreement that is outmoded but that we have little influence over .  Under our own steam we can do anything.  We can retain the best of what the EU has given us, in terms of legislation.  Subsidies I am not sure about but there seems to be a general consensus that we pay in more than we get out.  I want to know what is good about staying in before I decide how to vote.

 

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rory    0

I am concerned about what would happen with human rights as the UK government have alrady tried to reduce these.  Germany and France seem very strong in the EU and Britain has it's own say.  I am sure there are ways it could be improved. Alex Salmond said that there were matters needing addresses but that David Cameron did not even raise. It all seems like a waste of time and not right that so much time should be spent on what is really an in fight in the Conservatives.  I will be voting to stay in as we need to hang onto those workers and human rights and it is very clear that the most right wing are the ones wanting out. That mekes me  think that Harper might be right about subsidies and that it might be better for some businesses who could make more money if they were not restrained by EU laws that are helping workers and work conditions.  That just makes me more keen to stay in. I do not think the campaign to go out will be helped by their song.

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harper    0

An official body that hasn't managed to produce an audited set of accounts for the last 15 years is out of control and toxic, in my opinion.

The UK was finally accepted into the EU in 1975, after being blocked by De Gaulle in 1963.  In the life of our EU membership there have been I coalition government,  4 Labour prime ministers, and 3 conservative prime ministers, counting the current government.  EU membership is not a 1 party issue.

  • Cameron, Conservative 2014 - to date
  • Cameron/Clegg. Lib Con Coalition 2010 - 2014
  • Gordon Brown. Labour 2007 to 2010.
  • Tony Blair. Labour 1997 to 2007.
  • Sir John Major. Conservative 1990 to 1997.
  • Baroness Margaret Thatcher. Conservative 1979 to 1990.
  • James Callaghan. Labour 1976 to 1979.
  • Harold Wilson. Labour 1974 to 1976.

I still don't know how I am going to vote:/

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Pat    0

Looking pretty much like a one party issue at the moment, harper.  I suspect that's why the map showing MP's known intended votes looks so different in Scotland, where we only have one Tory MP.

 

parties in out.jpg

mps voting bbc.jpg.jpg

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