Slavery and Scotland

[lynnski 0]

I've always known Glasgow had made money off the back of the slave trade, but thought it was a bit secondary to the English involvement. How wrong can you be! Interesting things I have learnt this week:

-The Gallery of Modern Art was originally built as someone's mansion, a rich tobacco lord named William Cunningham.

http://www.amostcuriousmurder.com/RoyalExchangeHistory.htm

-the Glasgow connection to the slave trade was stronger in the Carribean than the more infamous American plantations. Hence names like the Kingston Bridge, Jamaica Street, etc.

-there's a reason I didn't really know all this, we are not taught it in school, and there seems to be a serious denial of these events.

A slightly out of date article, as it's partially about the Homecoming event of 2009, this has come to my attention as a source for part of my essay research for my history course at Uni:

http://www.variant.org.uk/35texts/AeFondKiss.html

[samscafeamericain 0]

I know the guy who wrote that article and had many an argument with him regarding it. His knowledge of Scotland's involvement in the slave trade is second to none and he is correct, it is a shameful past and one we should acknowledge. However, his understanding of modern marketing leaves a lot to be desired.

Homecoming 2009 was nothing more than a tourism project aimed at marketing Scotland; it was not an introspective on Scotland's shameful past. His need to link our slave trade involvement with the homecoming events is spurious.

If Scotland is to have a proper period of reconcilliation regarding our slave trade past, it should be a series of events specifically about that, it shouldn't be diluted or tagged on to the back of tourism marketing.

[Pat 0]

There could be an event in the Merchant City showing the fabulous buildings built by Glasgow's Tobacco Lords on the strength of the Slave Trade. Then something literary with discussion on Rabbie Burns Slave poems.

Kind of difficult to hide the connections. Although, I can't remember learning anything about this at school. Glasgow University still has strong links with Virginia University. Maybe they should work together to set up scholarships for students from the areas exploited in the past.

[lynnski 0]

Well, I just got back an essay I wrote on the whole Scotland and Slavery business, and got my first ever 'A' grade!!

Mullen's article was heavily cited in said essay, as well as work by Prof. Tom Devine. All in all, an interesting and enjoyable essay to write, depsite the sometimes horrific subject matter, and it has certainly improved my knowledge of the whole affair.

[Pat 0]

Marks tend to be better when you're really interested in the subject, lynnski. Well done!

[Dexter St. Clair 0]

Aye imagine if any of our ###### relatives from the Caribbean turning up uninvited to the homecoming. Eck would be Bla eh affronted em upset. He's rather have the KKK from alabama. After all they modelled the Confederate flag on the saltire.

I think the following is a fair point and only a fanatical Nat with an attitude problem would object. "

The marketing of Homecoming, however, has been firmly directed towards the US, Canada, New Zealand and Australia.¹⁴ In the ‘Plan your trip’ section on the official website the only countries highlighted are in North America, Australia and Europe.¹⁵ There is no mention of the Caribbean islands at all.

Scottish National Party (SNP) Members of the Scottish Parliament are currently on a drive to win international friends by twinning towns. Again, the focus is firmly on North America, New Zealand and Australia, with California Governor, Arnold Schwarzenegger encouraging co-operation with California in Falkirk.¹

⁶ However, it begs the question why the premier Atlantic trading port of Glasgow in Scotland should not have been a priority to develop co-operative relationships with the modern New World? Indeed, Glasgow in Jamaica would seem appropriate given the historic links. This oversight seems strange considering the sugar trade was the mainstay of the city’s development for almost 200 years; Jamaica Street and Kingston Bridge in Glasgow, and the location in Jamaica named by Scots, all point towards these connections."

[samscafeamericain 0]

Aye imagine if any of our ###### relatives from the Caribbean turning up uninvited to the homecoming. Eck would be Bla eh affronted em upset. He's rather have the KKK from alabama. After all they modelled the Confederate flag on the saltire.

I think the following is a fair point and only a fanatical Nat with an attitude problem would object. "

The marketing of Homecoming, however, has been firmly directed towards the US, Canada, New Zealand and Australia.¹⁴ In the ‘Plan your trip’ section on the official website the only countries highlighted are in North America, Australia and Europe.¹⁵ There is no mention of the Caribbean islands at all.

Scottish National Party (SNP) Members of the Scottish Parliament are currently on a drive to win international friends by twinning towns. Again, the focus is firmly on North America, New Zealand and Australia, with California Governor, Arnold Schwarzenegger encouraging co-operation with California in Falkirk.¹

⁶ However, it begs the question why the premier Atlantic trading port of Glasgow in Scotland should not have been a priority to develop co-operative relationships with the modern New World? Indeed, Glasgow in Jamaica would seem appropriate given the historic links. This oversight seems strange considering the sugar trade was the mainstay of the city’s development for almost 200 years; Jamaica Street and Kingston Bridge in Glasgow, and the location in Jamaica named by Scots, all point towards these connections."

Holy mother of God where does one start with such a piece of nonsense. Lets start with your flag nonsense. The confederate flag was the stars and bars, the crossed version you are no doubt talking about was never adopted by the confederacy. It simply became a popular symbol. Your spurious link to 'it was modelled on the Saltire' as somehow being Scotland's fault does point to something quite sinister going on between your ears Dex, do you really hate Scotland that much?

The entire point of homecoming was a tourism project to encourage emigrants and their children and grand children to come back to Scotland. To girn that this was not linked to Scotland's role in the slave trade shows an astonishing lack of understanding of tourism marketing but more likely, a nugget of sheer bitterness against anything the Scottish Government were trying to do to promote Scotland.

Its a nonsense, I've told him to his face its a nonsense and seeing you now blunder in tells me all I need to know.

Message to Dex, don't post after you have filled your belly in the pub.

[harper 0]

Interesting exchange of views.... Sam, if Dex is correct and the Carribbean was not included in the trip planning section, why do you think that was?

[samscafeamericain 0]

How much Scottish emigration went to the Carribean? The answer is less than 1%, you focus your marketing £s where you will get most bang for your buck. What other countries were not included in the trip planning section, can Dex link any spurious reasons to those countries?

[Pat 0]

Don't think there was much emmigration to the Caribbean, samsc. However, there's been some the other way. Recently I've been lectured by quite a few tutors from Trinidad and Jamaica at Glasgow Uni. They may have been able to entice some of their friends and family over for Homecoming. I don't think it was actually a major marketing success no matter how you look at it. If they decide to have another one then it would be a good idea to opt for a different approach.

I'm baffled by the Saltire's influencing the Confederate flag. First I've heard of it. Flags seem to be pretty limited in their design to stripes, blocks, stars and primary colours. Maybe we'll have a Clyde influenced one if we achieve Independence. That would be cheery and good for waving.

[harper 0]

I have heard reference to the Saltire as resenting the Scottish roots of many Southerners....... cough, cough, enough said.

I am guessing that the Homecoming event was based more on sentimentality and the desire to increase the tourist dollar than historical accuracy.

[Pat 0]

I thought it was just a series of events. A lot of them would have taken place anyway but were marketed under the Homecoming brand. They seem to be gearing up for the 2014 Homecoming with a focus on 'welcoming the world'. So nobody being left out this time round.

Homecoming Scotland 2014 FUNDED EVENTS

Homecoming Scotland 2014 will reinforce Scotland’s position on the international stage as a dynamic and creative nation. It will extend the benefits and opportunities offered by the Commonwealth Games and Ryder Cup and build on the successes of the first year of Homecoming 2009 by presenting a year-long coordinated programme of inspirational events. This programme will be designed to support Scotland’s events industry, increase visitors to Scotland and generate additional tourism revenue in a celebration of Scotland’s past, present and future in the year that “Scotland welcomes the world”.

http://www.eventscotland.org/scotland-the-perfect-stage/homecoming-scotland-2014/

[samscafeamericain 0]

I have heard reference to the Saltire as resenting the Scottish roots of many Southerners....... cough, cough, enough said.

I am not quite sure what you mean?

[lynnski 0]

This is an interesting read:

http://www.scotland.org/features/item/the-forgotten-diaspora/

[Pat 0]

Prof Palmer is helluva long winded, lynnski, but like his idea (other than about who should create the fund) - would that not be up to the government:

"If I were asked to make a wish for 2008 and beyond, it would be that a fund is created by the people of this country as a "cup of kindness" to help children descended from Caribbean slavery, escape the poverty, social despair and violence that destroys so many of their lives. The negative consequences of British slavery in the Caribbean are still with us today. To say the past has no effect on the way human beings live today is untrue.

Professor Geoff Palmer, writing in 2008.

[harper 0]

Lynski, what is this thread about? I am not sure where you are going with this ...

[Dexter St. Clair 0]

This thread is about the Homecoming and who's invited to it. Sam thinks it should be emigrants and their children but only if they're from Australia, Canada, the US because there was large scale emigration. He suggests less than 1% of emigration was to the what we used to call the West Indies. but cites no reference for it. As usual he heads for his dictionary of abuse.

But as Douglas J Hamilton points out in his book Scotland, The Caribbean and The Atlantic World Sam's nationalistic predecessors were interested in establishing colonies there. He does suggest "In total, perhaps 4,500 Scots went to the Caribbean in the second half of the seventeenth century," One understands why today's nationalist are reluctant to invite visitors from Panama but a Scots Society still thrives there.

"The second decade of the eighteenth century saw two Scotsmen as governors of St Kitts, Walter Douglas and Walter Hamilton. During this period, Scots were prominent among the grantees receiving estates of over 100 acres. The beleaguered refugees from Darien swelled Scottish numbers in Jamaica, and formed the basis of a considerable Argyll community of the western part of the island."

No invitation to their descendants even though some of them have red hair.

Salmond obviously prefers to meet a parade of Tartan clad tumshies with feathers in their baseball caps.

[rory 0]

_{I do not see where samsamericancafe said that Dexter St Clair. I think you are more or less looking for an argument. I still find the information you have added interesting.}

[lynnski 0]

No Dexter, it's not about the Homecoming, although that was an interesting aside. As I sais in my original post Harper, It's about how Scotland has links to the slave trade, something that a lot of Scottish people either know nothing, or very little about. I've always known about Merchant City, and some street names, being connected to it, but only in my preparation for this essay did I find out exactly just how involved Scotland was.

I had found the particular article I linked to, to be quite interesting, as it proved to me I wasn't alone in my ignorance. Obviously it was wrotten just before the Homecoming was about to start, but I do feel some of the author's comments are still very relevant. Scotland should acknowledge her part in slavery, and the money that it brought, especially to Glasgow.

[samscafeamericain 0]

No Dexter, it's not about the Homecoming, although that was an interesting aside. As I sais in my original post Harper, It's about how Scotland has links to the slave trade, something that a lot of Scottish people either know nothing, or very little about. I've always known about Merchant City, and some street names, being connected to it, but only in my preparation for this essay did I find out exactly just how involved Scotland was.

I had found the particular article I linked to, to be quite interesting, as it proved to me I wasn't alone in my ignorance. Obviously it was wrotten just before the Homecoming was about to start, but I do feel some of the author's comments are still very relevant. Scotland should acknowledge her part in slavery, and the money that it brought, especially to Glasgow.

Absolutely Lynski, but not in the homecoming tourism marketing exercise. If we trully are to face up to our role in slavery it must be done in an exercise specifically about that. To do anything less or indeed to tie it into a tourism promotion is an insult.

[Pat 0]

Good to see University of Glasgow taking steps to address reparation re slave trade in Glasgow.  https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/aug/23/glasgow-university-slave-trade-reparations