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lynnski

Panic (on the streets of London)

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As Harper says it's circumstancial and a by product. ? What the feck kind of answer is that to the mayhem that is going on

The extreme lawlessness in pockets of deprived neighbourhoods in London is certainly going to require some answers, Maggs.

"MPs on the House of Commons home affairs select committee are to conduct an enquiry into the rioting in London amid fears that a "toxic mix" of poor policing and social deprivation are to blame for the worst violence in the capital in decades."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/08/london-riots-mps-toxic-mix

It wouldn't be the first time that riots occurred during times of increased hardship.

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The extreme lawlessness in pockets of deprived neighbourhoods in London is certainly going to require some answers, Maggs.

"MPs on the House of Commons home affairs select committee are to conduct an enquiry into the rioting in London amid fears that a "toxic mix" of poor policing and social deprivation are to blame for the worst violence in the capital in decades."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/08/london-riots-mps-toxic-mix

It wouldn't be the first time that riots occurred during times of increased hardship.

The Police presence doesn't seem to be acting as a deterrent; according to these tv pictures.

Jimbo

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The Police presence doesn't seem to be acting as a deterrent; according to these tv pictures.

Jimbo

Feels like it has all be organised; the down-side to the social network.

Jimbo

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Feels like it has all be organised; the down-side to the social network.

Jimbo

Twitter is going mental. Allsorts of information from people terrified for their safety and others with images of the perpetrators. The trouble is spreading all the time - now in the West of London in Ealing and reports from Westbourne Grove, Camden, Clapham, Woolwich. Ealing Shopping Centre has been set on fire.

The scale of the problem is unbelievable.

No Government Ministers were available to speak on Newsnight but some MPs have been interviewed on BBC News and whilst decrying the mayhem they are making reference to disaffected youth. Ken Livingstone was interviewed and spoke about the young people having no stake in society.

Some of the people being interviewed, no wonder, sound incredibly emotional and worried.

God knows how they'll bring this under control.

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I didn't say they were, what I asked was what has rioting looting and pilaging got to do with protest.

And yet when needed you think

I would hope we are all concerned about the bigger issues, but equally as concerned about the. what you see ,the smaller issues. I would see these incidents as big issues and frightening ones if they were on my doorstep, in fact I find them appalling even thought they are not on my doorstep. Do you live in any of these areas, does it affect you, if so then I find your attitude very strange. There are people who live nad work in these areas, build up small business to keep their families, who will have lost in this carnage.

I tell you what I find strrange, (and disturbing), Maggs. The image of out of touch politicians flying back from afluent locations to quell inner city youth from sink estates. Just look at the contrast of this situation and you might begin to understand why these young people are so angry.

I have friends who live in some of the affected areas. Locally, our shops and pubs have been told to close up early. The situation is appalling but I can't say it comes as a surprise. London is one of the richest cities in the world and we have a generation of disaffected youth with no hope and no prospects. To my mind that is carnage.

http://www.obv.org.uk/news-blogs/diane-abbott-tinder-box-waiting-explode

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As Harper says it's circumstancial and a by product. ? What the feck kind of answer is that to the mayhem that is going on

MMggs, almost every disaster and social disturbance results in looting. It doesn't make it right, it's just a fact.

Why do you think reactions out there are so extreme?

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MMggs, almost every disaster and social disturbance results in looting. It doesn't make it right, it's just a fact.

Why do you think reactions out there are so extreme?

They are extreme, Harper. It's mayhem and absolutely terrifying. People are jumping out of buildings on fire. The police seem to be completely helpless as they watch a store burning on the main street at Clapham. On the News now, cars with people in them being attacked in Chalk Farm. (report by Guardian journalist, Paul Lewis) He says there is a feeling of empowerment among the young people. "A sense of anything being able to happen and the law not being there."

Reporters are all reporting the same sort of thing from different areas, although, in some areas there are hundreds of youths and others twenty or thirty.

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Don't worry the coalition Government has plans to deal with it.

1) reduce the 50% tax rate

2) reduce the number of police in London by 2,000 (I kid you not)

Maggs these boys and girls could burn and loot from now until Christmas and would not do one tenth of the theft and damage done to teh UK by the bankers, speculators and super rich. Even as the global markets are in free fall these unscrupulous b*stards are short selling and playing the markets - white collar thuggery, violence and greed is good apparently.

If you are wondering where the white collar thuggery and violence is coming from, I think ripping the futures from young people, ripping dignity from the poor and destroying many people's retirement are greater acts of thuggery and violence than some hooded ned booting in Top Shop's window - which of course will be insured.

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Guest thomas

Interesting coverage from Sky News this morning. Interesting interviews too - not one of the interviewees offered the excuse 'hard time or disadvantaged' all of them, from all backgrounds, all ethnic backgrounds came to the same conclusion; "criminality and greed".

The human cost to this is terrible, struggling families are left homeless, long term family businesses burnt out and meanwhile the excuses are now beginning to appear, 'Tory Govt = Riots. Disadvantaged, race, poverty."

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Maggs, Harper, Pat and Canny Lass have said pretty much everything that I came on here to say. In my original post on Saturday night, I didn't think for one second that this would still be happening on Tuesday. The looters are opportunistic ejects who are doing nothing but giving Londoners a bad name. There is a 'clean up' movement growing on twitter, people sickened by the violence getting together to clear up the mess these ejects are making. On the other side of the coin, however, there are also 'riot' event pages being set up all over Facebook, if you see any, please report them!

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Talk this morning about using water cannons (although, Theresa May has ruled that out)and allowing police to be unrestrained (this seems to be a popular opinion). Spokesman (think he is Patrick Mercer)says that he has seen no sign of trouble in London and that the problems were within very small areas.

The army would not be brought in "as this makes it look political." Furthermore, he stated that there are no soldiers available!!

Problems have also spread beyond the capital to Birmingham, Nottingham, Liverpool and Bristol.

Violence is unprecedented in scale and scope. It's terrifying and dangerous and sad.

"There are issues and greivances and these need to be addressed." So says Tim Godwin of the Met. He better be careful or he'll be branded an apologist. :rolleyes:

Looking for reasons, or suggesting why this might have happened, does not equate with excusing lawless behaviour. However, I suspect that if the youngsters involved were all about to start studying for a university degree or head off to work in the morning then they would be less likely to be out on a rampage.

Every police cell in the capital is full. I wonder how many of those arrested have never been in trouble before?

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Guest thomas

Sky News again reporting that 'young children and young teenagers' are involved in this. One community representative raised the question, "Do you know where your child is/was?"

He is a brave guy, coming down to the fact that he 'holds the parents' responsible for much of this, as they are lacking parental control.' When he was talking about 'young' it is seriously young, under 10 years...

Sounds like someone has just become involved in a 'rammy' for the sake of being involved and the original peaceful protest has now been forgotten about.

We will see what tonight's events hold....

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Sky News again reporting that 'young children and young teenagers' are involved in this. One community representative raised the question, "Do you know where your child is/was?"

He is a brave guy, coming down to the fact that he 'holds the parents' responsible for much of this, as they are lacking parental control.' When he was talking about 'young' it is seriously young, under 10 years...

Sounds like someone has just become involved in a 'rammy' for the sake of being involved and the original peaceful protest has now been forgotten about.

We will see what tonight's events hold....

I think that's about right, thomas.

People have lost their homes as well as businesses. Worth noting, that's people of many different ethnic backgrounds as were the young vandals, the police attempting to deal with the riots and those reporting on it. The incidents seem to have opened the door for rampant racism.

There will be sixteen thousand police on duty in London tonight. Last night they even had traffic police on duty.

Cameron has assured us that "We will do everything necessary to bring order to streets and make them safe and law abiding."

Policing the streets effectively is certainly essential - and one part of this problem. He made a good point stating that those youngsters involved are 'potentially damaging themselves".

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Oh aye, the army will be called in if the riots extend to Kensington & Chelsea... dahling.

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Oh aye, the army will be called in if the riots extend to Kensington & Chelsea... dahling.

Various options for containment are being bandied about but I don't think there is an army available to call in.

The violence is scary and a huge worry. So is this:

Working at street level in London, over a number of years, many of us have been concerned about large groups of young adults creating their own parallel antisocial communities with different rules. The individual is responsible for their own survival because the established community is perceived to provide nothing. Acquisition of goods through violence is justified in neighbourhoods where the notion of dog eat dog pervades and the top dog survives the best. The drug economy facilitates a parallel subculture with the drug dealer producing more fiscally efficient solutions than the social care agencies who are too under-resourced to compete.

The insidious flourishing of anti-establishment attitudes is paradoxically helped by the establishment. It grows when a child is dragged by their mother to social services screaming for help and security guards remove both; or in the shiny academies which, quietly, rid themselves of the most disturbed kids. Walk into the mental hospitals and there is nothing for the patients to do except peel the wallpaper. Go to the youth centre and you will find the staff have locked themselves up in the office because disturbed young men are dominating the space with their violent dogs. Walk on the estate stairwells with your baby in a buggy manoeuvring past the condoms, the needles, into the lift where the best outcome is that you will survive the urine stench and the worst is that you will be raped. The border police arrive at the neighbour's door to grab an "over-stayer" and his kids are screaming. British children with no legal papers have mothers surviving through prostitution and still there's not enough food on the table.

It's not one occasional attack on dignity, it's a repeated humiliation, being continuously dispossessed in a society rich with possession. Young, intelligent citizens of the ghetto seek an explanation for why they are at the receiving end of bleak Britain, condemned to a darkness where their humanity is not even valued enough to be helped. Savagery is a possibility within us all. Some of us have been lucky enough not to have to call upon it for survival; others, exhausted from failure, can justify resorting to it.

Our leaders still speak about how protecting the community is vital. The trouble is, the deal has gone sour. The community has selected who is worthy of help and who is not. In this false moral economy where the poor are described as dysfunctional, the community fails. One dimension of this failure is being acted out in the riots; the lawlessness is, suddenly, there for all to see. Less visible is the perverse insidious violence delivered through legitimate societal structures. Check out the price of failing to care...

Camila Batmanghelidjh

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/camila-batmanghelidjh-caring-costs-ndash-but-so-do-riots-2333991.html

A young man has died in Croydon. Hope they get this problem under control and hope it doesn't spread to Scotland. We managed to challenge the Poll Tax without too much bother but different times.

MP Grahame Morris tweeted: “Recall parliament: Cancel police leave; Bring in army logistical support for 999 services: Appeal to get kids off the streets: Stop the cuts.”

Curfews seem to be a popular idea - seems sensible.

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Well, these kids have certainly got people sitting up and thinking....and not before time, IMV.

We can rightly condemn their methods but we can no longer ignore problems that have been warned of for years, by people like CB and other community leaders. The whole thing is obviously beyond the ken of old Etonians, Cameron and Johnson, dragged back from the August recess - Boris is looking particularly befuddled. The problem is out the bag and there will be no stuffing it back. These kids have got a taste of their own, misguided and misdirected power. They are lairy and they are up for it and now they are encroaching into middle class areas, instead of causing mayhem on their usual stamping ground, where the problem is all too easy to ignore.

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Well, these kids have certainly got people sitting up and thinking....and not before time, IMV.

Unbelievable that someone would condone this kind of action to get people attention

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Unbelievable that someone would condone this kind of action to get people attention

Probably a good idea to put things in context, Maggs.

harper: Well, these kids have certainly got people sitting up and thinking....and not before time, IMV.

For the sake of accuracy, this was the start of the next sentence.. :

"We can rightly condemn their methods

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Probably a good idea to put things in context, Maggs.

For the sake of accuracy, this was the start of the next sentence.. :

Wether it was the next sentence or the last sentence, as far as I am concerned an opening snetence like that speaks volumes about a persons attitude, and I find it appalling.

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Wether it was the next sentence or the last sentence, as far as I am concerned an opening snetence like that speaks volumes about a persons attitude, and I find it appalling.

I think that is a bit of conjecture Maggs. On reading your earlier post you painted a different picture from the one that Harper painted in his post but feelings are running very high on this topic. From what I understand Harper is in London so maybe more in the picture than the rest of us.

I have just finished work and my workmates have been arguing about the riots all day. There are some of them who simply see the violence of mindless hooligans and there are some who are asking why this is happening. There are some people who think it is time to ship the water cannons used in war torn Ireland across the sea. A few think that there is a need to engage with young people in their communities and create opportunities in employment and education to give them some hope.

I have been hearing all day that this could not happen in Glasgow but nobody seems to be able to say with any conviction why that is the case. I hope it does not come to us but there are a lot of dispirited young people here too. There are not a lot of jobs about but I think young people here are more likely to see the Scottish Government on their side to some extent. Reasons could be that the students are not paying tuition fees and there are moves to make more apprenticeships available. It could be this makes them less alienated.

I do not believe that there is the same massive divide in society in Glasgow as there is in London. We are not that rich but we have the poor areas. I heard that a 16 year old has been arrested in Glasgow for trying to orchestrate a riot on Facebook. I hope he is alone but it shows we should not be complacent.

I have heard in my workplace a few people condoning the violence and viewing it as a manifestation of class struggle. I think there is a possibility that they are right. I would be happy if note was taken that same as Harper I do not condone methods but this uprising has to have a cause. What is the cause?

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On reading your earlier post you painted a different picture from the one that Harper painted in his post but feelings are running very high on this topic

Maybe that is because we are seeing in different ways, I think the bigger picture is important, but right now would rather deal with the smaller picture.

I do not condone methods but this uprising has to have a cause. What is the cause?

Greed, lawlesness, mindlessness. These people who are feeling hopeless are not starving, they have clothes on their back, they have a welfare system to fall back on. I have been in the jobless, single mother zone, as have others on here, I certainly did not result to violence.

As for their community, as one local said, they were starting to build their community and now these ###### have destroyed what they had. There have been young people in the same community who have taken the opposite attitude and are willing to help clean up

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/8691761/London-riots-residents-fight-back.htm

Why the hell arn't they out their rioting, they're young, I'm being facetious of course.

Bring in the water cannons, the more the better I say

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I looked out on the destruction. Smashed windows, cars turned upside down, a bus on fire, people running scared, police unsure what move to make. . . .

I turned to the wife and said 'Chin up darling, you did your best, but maybe I should park the car!'

:lol:B)

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I think that is a bit of conjecture Maggs. On reading your earlier post you painted a different picture from the one that Harper painted in his post but feelings are running very high on this topic. From what I understand Harper is in London so maybe more in the picture than the rest of us.

I have just finished work and my workmates have been arguing about the riots all day. There are some of them who simply see the violence of mindless hooligans and there are some who are asking why this is happening. There are some people who think it is time to ship the water cannons used in war torn Ireland across the sea. A few think that there is a need to engage with young people in their communities and create opportunities in employment and education to give them some hope.

I have been hearing all day that this could not happen in Glasgow but nobody seems to be able to say with any conviction why that is the case. I hope it does not come to us but there are a lot of dispirited young people here too. There are not a lot of jobs about but I think young people here are more likely to see the Scottish Government on their side to some extent. Reasons could be that the students are not paying tuition fees and there are moves to make more apprenticeships available. It could be this makes them less alienated.

I do not believe that there is the same massive divide in society in Glasgow as there is in London. We are not that rich but we have the poor areas. I heard that a 16 year old has been arrested in Glasgow for trying to orchestrate a riot on Facebook. I hope he is alone but it shows we should not be complacent.

I have heard in my workplace a few people condoning the violence and viewing it as a manifestation of class struggle. I think there is a possibility that they are right. I would be happy if note was taken that same as Harper I do not condone methods but this uprising has to have a cause. What is the cause?

That seems to be about right, rory. We've always had an element of mindless hooligans in our communities; we've not previously seen violent and destructive uprisings throughout England. This tends to make you ask - as you have. "What is the cause?"

Pity the trouble has spread tonight to West Brom, Manchester and Wolverhampton.

(harper is a lassie :))

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Maybe that is because we are seeing in different ways, I think the bigger picture is important, but right now would rather deal with the smaller picture.

Greeed, lawlesness, mindlessness. These people who are feeling hopeless are not starving, they have clothes on t heir back, they have a welfare system to fall back on. I have been in the jobless, single mother zone as have others on here, I certainly did not result to violence.

Lucky you n me n others Mags but things have changed, the Welfare system does certainly not treat single mothers kindly any more. The government keep insisting they start work but they have not increased pre 5 nursery places. The CSI where fathers were expected to contribute has proved an absolute nightmare for most families.

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Unbelievable that someone would condone this kind of action to get people attention

Maggs, what part of "We can rightly condemn their methods" is condoning their actions? This behaviour is expressing that there is something fundementally wrong in our society and it needs to be addressed.

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