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borderlass

SNP re-think

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A bit of realism at last

Seems that even some senior figures in the SNP are not too sure no about coming out totally "from behind their mammy's skirts" :(

Funny enough, I was speaking to one of my friends this morning and she was telling me about a couple she knows who are very SNP-orientated (not sure whether they are party members or not) and in a recent conversation she had with them following the elections, they were quite surprised that my friend thought the SNP wanted full independence. :lol:

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:lol::(

You take what comfort you can from that.

Funny the number of people who have said to me that they would never have thought of themselves as pro-indeopendence but after the election result are feeling good about the thought of an independent Scotland.

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Sadly, including the English.....

Quentin Lett's in today's Mail. Can we really say this is a good thing?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1386910/Good-riddance-Quentin-Letts-fed-ungrateful-Scots-gorging-money-He-says-independence.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

I joned the SNP more years ago than I care to count. Whether I live in Scotland or not, I fundementally believe that Scotland has the right to self dertermination and I have supported the debate from the outset but I am dismayed by how ugly the debate is becoming.

Ehther based on fact or fiction, QL's article is typical of the views reported and discussed south of the border. The independence issue has gone on for far too long, IMV and needs to be resolved. It will be a sad day if the SNP hold a referendum and the vote goes against them. What then for Scottish/English relations?

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:lol: :lol:

You take what comfort you can from that.

Comfort ?? :( - the newspapers are the last place I would go if I felt in need of "comfort" Of course, since you don't like what the article says you can dismiss it as "piss and wind" - presumably all the senior SNP members that are referred to will come out and contradict the story in tomorrow's papers (those papers that do not take a "pro-Unionist stance " of course) :lol:

Funny the number of people who have said to me that they would never have thought of themselves as pro-indeopendence but after the election result are feeling good about the thought of an independent Scotland.

Ah well, that settles it then - no need to waste public money in carrying out a referendum of the entire Scottish population :lol: :lol:

Harper, I don't think there's any question that the vote would go against outright independence in a referendum (except in Sam's mind, of course). That is exactly why serious politicians within the party are having a re-think as to the direction to take. As the article says, a "No" vote would rule out any movement on independence for a generation. I'm not a Salmond fan as you know, but I do think he is an astute politician and he knows it would be a disaster for the independence cause to ask the people and for the people to say No.

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Comfort ?? :( - the newspapers are the last place I would go if I felt in need of "comfort" Of course, since you don't like what the article says you can dismiss it as "piss and wind" - presumably all the senior SNP members that are referred to will come out and contradict the story in tomorrow's papers (those papers that do not take a "pro-Unionist stance " of course) :lol:

Ah well, that settles it then - no need to waste public money in carrying out a referendum of the entire Scottish population :lol: :lol:

Harper, I don't think there's any question that the vote would go against outright independence in a referendum (except in Sam's mind, of course). That is exactly why serious politicians within the party are having a re-think as to the direction to take. As the article says, a "No" vote would rule out any movement on independence for a generation. I'm not a Salmond fan as you know, but I do think he is an astute politician and he knows it would be a disaster for the independence cause to ask the people and for the people to say No.

You truly are deluded. Where is your evidence for the statement 'I don't think there's any question that the vote would go against outright independence in a referendum'.

The article talks of an independent Scotland sharing embassies overseas and some of the big ticket items such as the military with the UK. That is sensible thinking, why do you think it is otherwise? The SNP has always stated the Queen would remain head of state post independence until the Scottish people decided they wished to be a republic, is that wrong also? Do you think we will be putting up walls at the border and demanding people from other parts of the UK have passports to get in to Scotland? That all ties with England will be cut and they will become a pariah state in our eyes?

Independence will allow Scotland to move its relationship with England on to an adult basis. We will stop being a reluctant lodger and become damn fine neighbours. Independence is about Scotland being free to use its resources for the betterment of its people, to drive our economy in a way that suits Scotland, not Westminster, to exploit our wonderful natural resources for us.

You continue finding half truth, half baked articles and leaping to erroneous conclusions if it makes you feel better.

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There's a lot of wishful thinking in the above post and little evidence either. Is this what happened when other now independent countries threw off rule from London?

At the moment the polls on Independence can be translated as Scots not wanting independence. The poll that counts of course will be the referendum vote.

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There's a lot of wishful thinking in the above post and little evidence either. Is this what happened when other now independent countries threw off rule from London?

At the moment the polls on Independence can be translated as Scots not wanting independence. The poll that counts of course will be the referendum vote.

Here's a list of the top 25 countries in the world by gdp per capita (IMF 2010)

1 Qatar **

2 Luxembourg

3 Singapore*

4 Norway **

5 Brunei*

6 United Arab Emirates **

7 United States*

8 Hong Kong*

9 Switzerland

10 Netherlands

11 Australia*

12 Austria

13 Canada*

14 Ireland*

15 Sweden

16 Kuwait**

17 Iceland

18 Denmark

19 Belgium

20 Germany

21 Taiwan

22 United Kingdom

23 Finland

24 France

25 Japan

* Formerly controlled by London

** Have their own source of oil

Looks pretty healthy to me.

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There's a lot of wishful thinking in the above post and little evidence either. Is this what happened when other now independent countries threw off rule from London?

At the moment the polls on Independence can be translated as Scots not wanting independence. The poll that counts of course will be the referendum vote.

Absolutely spot-on Dexter. I'm not even going to bother replyingto (or even reading) Sam's posts on independence now that the vitriol and personal attacks are beginning to creep in. When people start to descend to that level it's because they are losing the argument imo.

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I enjoyed the article you posted Boarderlass and feel it presents a realistic view of the issue. People are not going to be persuaded by the shouty, angry brigade, the Scots are far to smart and sophisticated for that one.

After the election, I heard SNPs talking about a "culture of independence" and that points to a more adult debate, IMV.

The dialogue for independence needs to be updated and extended beyond economics. The SNP have made great strides in gaining financial control of spending and will continue to makes gains in that respect. What's missing from the debate would be the effect on our national identity and collective culture that also includes Ireland and Wales.

Self determination is good for every country within the Union, IMV and it seems to be that this is eminently achievable without ripping it apart.

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Absolutely spot-on Dexter. I'm not even going to bother replyingto (or even reading) Sam's posts on independence now that the vitriol and personal attacks are beginning to creep in. When people start to descend to that level it's because they are losing the argument imo.

I do love the hissy fit mentallity of the internet. You have a post full of wee digs at me then get on the offended bus when challemged in a similar manner :lol: :lol:

What was it I said about hiding behind mammies skirts :lol:

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I enjoyed the article you posted Boarderlass and feel it presents a realistic view of the issue. People are not going to be persuaded by the shouty, angry brigade, the Scots are far to smart and sophisticated for that one.

After the election, I heard SNPs talking about a "culture of independence" and that points to a more adult debate, IMV.

The dialogue for independence needs to be updated and extended beyond economics. The SNP have made great strides in gaining financial control of spending and will continue to makes gains in that respect. What's missing from the debate would be the effect on our national identity and collective culture that also includes Ireland and Wales.

Self determination is good for every country within the Union, IMV and it seems to be that this is eminently achievable without ripping it apart.

We have had 35 years of the unionist establishment led by the Scotsman et al undermining Scotland and the confidence of its people. Freedom of Information is a bitch when the Scottish Office is caught conspiring against its own people for the sake of keeping a union together.

A culture of independence is exactly what has to be installed. People need to starte believing in themselves again, and the point I made earlier about guys speaking to me regarding a new found confidence that Scotland could go it alone was true and representitive of what the SNP is trying to achieve.

The Unionist debate has no other argument than the economic scare story.

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I am indebted to my cached collection of SNP News for this

SNP Leader Alex Salmond has today called for Scotland to join northern Europe's arc of prosperity, with Ireland to the west, Iceland to the north and Norway to the east all small independent countries in the top six richest nations in the world. In comparison, the UK is 14th and devolved Scotland 18th ­ with similar, oil rich Norway over £12,000 per person better off.

2006-08-11

That scares me.

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We have had 35 years of the unionist establishment led by the Scotsman et al undermining Scotland and the confidence of its people. Freedom of Information is a bitch when the Scottish Office is caught conspiring against its own people for the sake of keeping a union together.

A culture of independence is exactly what has to be installed. People need to starte believing in themselves again, and the point I made earlier about guys speaking to me regarding a new found confidence that Scotland could go it alone was true and representitive of what the SNP is trying to achieve.

The Unionist debate has no other argument than the economic scare story.

Sam, people are not going to follow the ideology of independence and start believing in themselves, as you put it, without a clear strategy and some idea of the risks involved. Given their record of bold policy decisions and sound governance, this shouldn't be beyond the SNP.

You do yourself and the SNP no favours by chiding people who express concern and uncertainty. The people of Scotland need a blueprint for change and then maybe they will start believing that independence is possible and viable. The party has got to get beyond preaching to the converted and dismissing those that have yet to be convinced as a bunch of fearties.

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I am indebted to my cached collection of SNP News for this

2006-08-11

That scares me.

what should have scared you even more was the clowns at the tiller of HMS UK as they steered us over the abyss

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Sam, people are not going to follow the ideology of independence and start believing in themselves, as you put it, without a clear strategy and some idea of the risks involved. Given their record of bold policy decisions and sound governance, this shouldn't be beyond the SNP.

You do yourself and the SNP no favours by chiding people who express concern and uncertainty. The people of Scotland need a blueprint for change and then maybe they will start believing that independence is possible and viable. The party has got to get beyond preaching to the converted and dismissing those that have yet to be convinced as a bunch of fearties.

Harper I completely disagree with you on your first point. The Unionists have run a fabulous 35 year campaign of creating disbelief without any clear strategy or ideas of risk. The economics arguments will look after themselves, what is holding Scotland back now is self belief.

I will continue to chide people who present opinion backed up with nil evidence as facts on which they wish to hold back my country.

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I will continue to chide people who present opinion backed up with nil evidence as facts on which they wish to hold back my country.

Precisely what I'm doing to you but I'm not megalomaniac to think it's just my country.When Salmond books Jack Black to rebuild our self esteem that might change.

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Precisely what I'm doing to you but I'm not megalomaniac to think it's just my country.When Salmond books Jack Black to rebuild our self esteem that might change.

I think Jack Black can help Dexter St Clair but you need to build your own self esteem. Whether or not there will be Independence it is a good thing that self esteem in Scotland seems to be improving.

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Harper I completely disagree with you on your first point. The Unionists have run a fabulous 35 year campaign of creating disbelief without any clear strategy or ideas of risk. The economics arguments will look after themselves, what is holding Scotland back now is self belief.

I will continue to chide people who present opinion backed up with nil evidence as facts on which they wish to hold back my country.

Blimey... unsure.gif

I take it that isn't the formal SNP line? laugh.gif

The Unionists may have had 35 years of creating disbelief but that is neither here nor there. Regardless of what has gone before, the SNP need to convince the people of Scotland that Indpendence is in Scotland's favour by showing them how a sustainable future can be achieved.The SNP are not going to win any referendum on Indpendence on the basis of telling people that they lack self belief and I would put money on

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I enjoyed the article you posted Boarderlass and feel it presents a realistic view of the issue. People are not going to be persuaded by the shouty, angry brigade, the Scots are far to smart and sophisticated for that one.

Totally agree Harper - you are one of the more reasonable voices in Nationalism but unfortunately on the internet it seems to be the shouty, angry brigade that is most frequently heard as they drown out the rest. The "comments" sections of the Scottish press have been taken over by the cyber-nats and while there may be some very sensible points in there, few intelligent people have the time to waste going through all the trash to look for them.

The Scotsman has a number of interesting viewpoints in their articles, but they attract hundreds of comments from the same few people dismissing what is written simply because "it's a unionist rag" :lol: The latest article today has something like "526 comments" and this happens every time there's anything printed that relates to the Nats - I'm sure a cursory glance at the comments will convince you that it's hardly the forum for "a more adult debate".

The dialogue for independence needs to be updated and extended beyond economics. The SNP have made great strides in gaining financial control of spending and will continue to makes gains in that respect. What's missing from the debate would be the effect on our national identity and collective culture that also includes Ireland and Wales.

Self determination is good for every country within the Union, IMV and it seems to be that this is eminently achievable without ripping it apart.

I agree, but there certainly needs to be intelligent debate about how it would work. In today's article one of points a Labour MP made was that defence and foreign policy are inextricable linked. Don't know if that's right or not, but Salmond states that we would not have gone to war in Iraq - not sure how that would work if we had shared armies etc? He also says that initially we woudl keep sterling but then go in to the euro :o - I'm not happy with that.

It's a very interesting time in politics and there is certainly a need for a distinctive Scottish identity within the Labour party and the Lib Dems. I agree with Henry McLeish that Labour has never really found its identity within a devolved Scotland. The Lib Dems are now tainted by the actions of Nick Clegg & Co at Westminster, and the Tories will never cut it north of the border. That leaves the Nats, and they are a party that was formed simply to promote independence, so the public at large is NOT clear about what kind of government they would run with a greater level of independence.

Blimey... unsure.gif

I take it that isn't the formal SNP line? laugh.gif

Stop being such a worrier Harper - of course the economic arguments will care take of themselves in an independent Scotland :lol: :lol:

Regardless of what has gone before, the SNP need to convince the people of Scotland that Indpendence is in Scotland's favour by showing them how a sustainable future can be achieved.The SNP are not going to win any referendum on Indpendence on the basis of telling people that they lack self belief and I would put money on

Yep - nor telling them that they're simply a bunch of fearties hiding behind their mammy's skirts :lol:

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Precisely what I'm doing to you but I'm not megalomaniac to think it's just my country.When Salmond books Jack Black to rebuild our self esteem that might change.

Sadly you are failing :lol:

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Sadly, including the English.....

Quentin Lett's in today's Mail. Can we really say this is a good thing?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1386910/Good-riddance-Quentin-Letts-fed-ungrateful-Scots-gorging-money-He-says-independence.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

I joned the SNP more years ago than I care to count. Whether I live in Scotland or not, I fundementally believe that Scotland has the right to self dertermination and I have supported the debate from the outset but I am dismayed by how ugly the debate is becoming.

Ehther based on fact or fiction, QL's article is typical of the views reported and discussed south of the border. The independence issue has gone on for far too long, IMV and needs to be resolved. It will be a sad day if the SNP hold a referendum and the vote goes against them. What then for Scottish/English relations?

Good lord, harper. Pretty racist stuff.

"The Scots are still living high on the state’s hog — thanks to English tax money."

Letts has managed to cram in quite a lot of nasty stuff into that article:

"Scotland has a population of about five million, but they are an expensive five million. Imagine not having to pay for them!"

"There is another way Scottish independence could save us money. England would be unashamedly Right-wing and would therefore be able politically to reduce the benefits culture which has been established by Celtic socialism."

I hope he only represents a small percentage of the uneducated and unenlightened.

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Good lord, harper. Pretty racist stuff.

"The Scots are still living high on the state's hog — thanks to English tax money."

Letts has managed to cram in quite a lot of nasty stuff into that article:

"Scotland has a population of about five million, but they are an expensive five million. Imagine not having to pay for them!"

"There is another way Scottish independence could save us money. England would be unashamedly Right-wing and would therefore be able politically to reduce the benefits culture which has been established by Celtic socialism."

I hope he only represents a small percentage of the uneducated and unenlightened.

It's shocking, Pat but sadly a much watered down version of this is not uncommon these days.

The SNP scoiaist policies have not been popular in the South because of the inaccurate perception of subsidies and interest in the idea of opportunity cost.

It is really sad that this stuff goes unchallenged in the English press. Do they SNP not have a press office?

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It's shocking, Pat but sadly a much watered down version of this is not uncommon these days.

The SNP scoiaist policies have not been popular in the South because of the inaccurate perception of subsidies and interest in the idea of opportunity cost.

It is really sad that this stuff goes unchallenged in the English press. Do they SNP not have a press office?

Letts has an awfi cheek. On my last visit to the Heilans I was welcomed at almost each and every hostelry by a Cockney lad or a posh Hampshire lassie. They selt their hooses in the South for a fortune and set up home in Scotland. If this sort of talk doesn't subside then I'll be taking my tent next time. They're still charging Southern prices anyhoo, although, contributing to the tourist industry and employing locals. (I thought I should add that last bit and set a good example by trying to be fair :lol:)

I didn't like his crack about Salmond acting like a statesman and his dress sense improving. Snide.

(There's now a man shouting about beetles. I think it must be a session for children. Now it's a hedgehog! I'm going to ask them when they have 'Quiet Time' in Libraries.)

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Letts has an awfi cheek. On my last visit to the Heilans I was welcomed at almost each and every hostelry by a Cockney lad or a posh Hampshire lassie. They selt their hooses in the South for a fortune and set up home in Scotland. If this sort of talk doesn't subside then I'll be taking my tent next time. They're still charging Southern prices anyhoo, although, contributing to the tourist industry and employing locals. (I thought I should add that last bit and set a good example by trying to be fair :rolleyes:)

I didn't like his crack about Salmond acting like a statesman and his dress sense improving. Snide.

(There's now a man shouting about beetles. I think it must be a session for children. Now it's a hedgehog! I'm going to ask them when they have 'Quiet Time' in Libraries.)

You're right, Canny Lass. There are opportunities for individuals in both countries. You couldn't really call Lett's view balanced.

Hillhead Library is generally pretty peaceful. :angry:

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