800 replies to this topic

[harper]

According to the UK Press Association:

"The Prime Minister has said he is ready to argue the case against Scottish independence in any referendum called by the SNP Government at Holyrood. Scotland's First Minister Alex Salmond is said to be going "slightly going off the idea". (sounds unlikey)

Is this the beginning of the end of the vision for an independent future for Scotland?

Edit by poster: missed a word out.

[G12bloke]

According to the UK Press Association:

"The Prime Minister has said he is ready to argue the case against Scottish independence in any referendum called by the SNP Government at Holyrood. Scotland's First Minister Alex Salmond is said to be going "slightly going off the idea". (sounds unlikey)

Is this the beginning of the end to an independent future for Scotland?

Salmond went off the idea when his much vaunted, and widely ridiculed, 20 seats vanished up his bahookie.

[samscafeamericain]

Independence is as much a state of mind as it is a concept. You can guarantee in the run up to any such referendum on the settled will of the Scottish people that a quite dreadful campaign of cringing disinformation would be run by the unionist parties, the press and their lackeys. I find it quite incredible that fellow Scots would run down and degrade the abilities of their country and their fellows to manage their own affairs, but rest assured that is exactly what has happened since the 1970s and will continue to happen.

It would be interesting to see a list from the Unionists of the benefits to Scotland of this Union. I wonder how many will be negatives?

[G12bloke]

Independence is as much a state of mind as it is a concept. You can guarantee in the run up to any such referendum on the settled will of the Scottish people that a quite dreadful campaign of cringing disinformation would be run by the unionist parties, the press and their lackeys. I find it quite incredible that a fellow Scot would run down and degrade the abilities of their country and their fellows to manage their own affairs, but rest assured that is exactly what has happened since the 1970s.

There will be no referendum. Only a tiny minority want one and they're scared ****less to call one.

[samscafeamericain]

There will be no referendum. Only a tiny minority want one and they're scared ****less to call one.

Why would you recommend we stick with this union?

[Pat]

Independence is as much a state of mind as it is a concept. You can guarantee in the run up to any such referendum on the settled will of the Scottish people that a quite dreadful campaign of cringing disinformation would be run by the unionist parties, the press and their lackeys. I find it quite incredible that fellow Scots would run down and degrade the abilities of their country and their fellows to manage their own affairs, but rest assured that is exactly what has happened since the 1970s and will continue to happen.

It would be interesting to see a list from the Unionists of the benefits to Scotland of this Union. I wonder how many will be negatives?

What do you think would be the benefits of Scottish Independence, samsc?
Or anyone else?

[harper]

Independence is as much a state of mind as it is a concept. You can guarantee in the run up to any such referendum on the settled will of the Scottish people that a quite dreadful campaign of cringing disinformation would be run by the unionist parties, the press and their lackeys. I find it quite incredible that a fellow Scot would run down and degrade the abilities of their country and their fellows to manage their own affairs, but rest assured that is exactly what has happened since the 1970s.

At the time of the election there was some discussion on here as to whether the election of a Tory Government would hasten the move towards a referendum. Many thought and hoped it would. This is Cameron's clearest statement that any suggestion will be fiercely robustly opposed. In the face of the news that Alex Salmond is now saying that he wants to delay calling a referendum, what does this amount to? (And just for Hingmie and Pat, I shall phrase it this way) Is Cameron just bummin' his load and does Salmond have the moral chops to follow through on his promise to the people of Scotland?

It is sounding mighty disappointing on both counts.

[G12bloke]

Why would you recommend we stick with this union?

It isn't a question of recommending sticking with the union. There isn't going to be a referendum - Alex knows he'll lose and, when he loses, the SNP will vanish into obscurity again for many, many years.

Rather than risk that he'll bottle a referendum - just as he's done this time round. In the words of his hero, the auld ***** herself, he's frit.

[Pat]

At the time of the election there was some discussion on here as to whether the election of a Tory Government would hasten the move towards a referendum. Many thought and hoped it would. This is Cameron's clearest statement that any suggestion will be fiercely robustly opposed. In the face of the news that Alex Salmond is now saying that he wants to delay calling a referendum, what does this amount to?

At least it gets the discussion under way and out in the open.
Think it is a misjudged move by Cameron - just the sort of talk that will propel Scotland's population into voting Scottish Nationslist.

(And just for Hingmie and Pat, I shall phrase it this way) Is Cameron just bummin' his load and does Salmond have the moral chops to follow through on his promise to the people of Scotland? It is sounding mighty disappointing on both counts.

Smarty pants! (just sticking with the nether regions theme).

[G12bloke]

...................(And just for Hingmie and Pat, I shall phrase it this way) Is Cameron just bummin' his load and does Salmond have the moral chops to follow through on his promise to the people of Scotland?

...........................

Creating an artificial sentence by sticking a conjunction between two questions is tantamount to cheating

[samscafeamericain]

What do you think would be the benefits of Scottish Independence, samsc?
Or anyone else?

Policies created and enacted by Scots for Scots. We get to decide what kind of society we want for our people.

We would be able to fully harness the benefits of our natural resources for our people.

We would be better placed to realise the potential and creativity of our Universities and our people for our people

Simple self determination, we would not as a nation be fighting wars in Iraq or Afghanistan, because we have some colonial baggage.

We would be equals in any discussions at an EU and International level; no more for instance would our fishing rights be bargained off the table.

A Scottish Constitution, for the people, by the people, ach you know the rest.

Self responsibility, only when we face up to the benefits and ramifications of our own decisions will we be able to fully develop as a people. Right now, we are nowt but unionist cattle. We as a people are managed.

[harper]

At least it gets the discussion under way and out in the open.
Think it is a misjudged move by Cameron - just the sort of talk that will propel Scotland's population into voting Scottish Nationslist.


Smarty pants! (just sticking with the nether regions theme).

Actually, I think it is more likely to be the bit where he said he wants to re-establish the Tories in Scotland... now there's an SNP campaign winner if ever I heard one.

[samscafeamericain]

It isn't a question of recommending sticking with the union. There isn't going to be a referendum - Alex knows he'll lose and, when he loses, the SNP will vanish into obscurity again for many, many years.

Rather than risk that he'll bottle a referendum - just as he's done this time round. In the words of his hero, the auld ***** herself, he's frit.

we are not talking about Alex Salmond, we are talking about the independence of your nation, why are you running away from the question?

[harper]

Creating an artificial sentence by sticking a conjunction between two questions is tantamount to cheating

Pfft! away and biel yur heid you.

[harper]

we are not talking about Alex Salmond, we are talking about the independence of your nation, why are you running away from the question?

Sam, AS has been the public face of Scotland's drive for Independence, of course it has everything to do with him at this point. Seriously, if there is to be no referendum, what happens next?

[G12bloke]

we are not talking about Alex Salmond, we are talking about the independence of your nation, why are you running away from the question?

Alex is the only politician of any standing in the (whole of the) UK with any aspirations to Scottish independence - it's only fair he should get the credit/ blame for what his singulary misguided minions are trying to achieve.

There's no running away from the question. In the unlikely event a question is ever put to the nation it will be on the basis - do you want independence and the two or three people who do will be required to explain and support their desire for a change.

Scotland is an intrinsically conservative (with a small c) country thus, by definition, resistant to change. Those who seek change have the task to explaining why it should happen.

It's a bit like an innocent man not having to prove his innocence. Those who would seek to change his status to guilty need to prove the case.

[G12bloke]

Sam, AS has been the public face of Scotland's drive for Independence, of course it has everything to do with him at this point. Seriously, if there is to be no referendum, what happens next?

Salmond does not wish his legacy to be 'the man who lost the referendum that kicked independence into the long grass for a generation or more' (the only person I've heard calling for a referendum day after day after day till the Scottish people return the 'right' answer was the very forgettable and wholly useless John Mason).

Salmond would rather do nothing than run the risk of losing. Frit, as I said before.

[samscafeamericain]

So, there is no list of reasons why Scotland should remain part of this Union?

If we personalise this to Alex Salmond then the argument simply becomes an exercise in Ad hominem for the Unionists. Hardly a useful debate, albeit one Unionists would rather have.

I want to know why we should remain part of this Union and 'because that's the way it is' is not an answer.

[samscafeamericain]

Sam, AS has been the public face of Scotland's drive for Independence, of course it has everything to do with him at this point. Seriously, if there is to be no referendum, what happens next?

You continue to fight, you pick the battles and ideally choose the moment and the battlefield. We have had 40 years of Unionist scare stories (FOI is a Baitch)and that's a lot of disinformation to overcome. We have found ourselves in one of the worst economic downturns in nearly a century, of course people are scared of change (even if they want it). The confidence of the Scottish people needs to be built inch by inch, that will take time.