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Better value in terms of cost, better value in terms of contribution to the lives of the people they represent, ................................

What, apart from the smoking ban, has Holyrood contributed to the life of the average Scot.

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Doing away with feudal tenure, poindings and warrant sales;

The rights of crofters to buy their estates;

Abolition of tolls (taxes) on bridges;

Banning fur farms;

Free tuition;

Free Health care for the elderly;

Reducing prescription charges.

How's that grab you for starters.

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Doing away with feudal tenure, poindings and warrant sales;

The rights of crofters to buy their estates;

Abolition of tolls (taxes) on bridges;

Banning fur farms;

Free tuition;

Free Health care for the elderly;

Reducing prescription charges.

How's that grab you for starters.

These things are all well and good but how many of them have "contributed to the life of the average Scot"?

Feudal tenure? Crofting Reform? Fur farms? How many 'average Scots' actually pay for presecriptions or benefit from care for the elderly? How many 'average Scots' get free tuition?

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sorry, sadly the airy fairy Scottish Parliament didn't do important things like take us to illegal wars and didn't oversee the worst economic crisis since the 1930s.

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sorry, sadly the airy fairy Scottish Parliament didn't do important things like take us to illegal wars and didn't oversee the worst economic crisis since the 1930s.

You sound a wee bit grumpy there Sam. What's up? Scotland humped again?

Never mind. Altogether now 'Oh Flower of Scotland............... ' ;)

Sing up. Sing up. What's the matter with you? We can't hear you here. Louder! Louder!!

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G12 Im sorry to contradict you about the procurement of your Parliament Building & method of contract but you are wrong.

G12 wrote

As I thought I'd pointed out previously, Holyrood was a major public procurement contract. Much as we may not like European Law it is quite clear projects and contracts above a certain value have to be advertised Europe wide. Buggin's turn is no longer acceptable.

I suggest you read the Fraser Report

Viz 4.4

On 16 July 1997 Donald Dewar announced that a competition would be held to select “…the

best design for a new Scottish Parliament.”145 He emphasised architectural quality,

accessibility, value for money, cost-saving efforts and a design “worthy of the hopes and

aspirations of the Scottish people”. He stated his reservations about the ORHS, and indicated

that it would be considered as one of a number of options. The time frame which he wished

was clear, and the demand was for a designer to be in place early in 1998 and for the building

to be completed for the new millennium. The Press release said “We want value for money as

well as quality. We will be looking at ways in which the cost of the Parliament can be kept to a

minimum.” That was the architectural equivalent of motherhood and apple pie. Who would not

want all these desirable architectural and economic virtues? It appears to me that Scottish

Office officials were not slow in understanding their task. What they were to struggle with was

where the priority lay: Quality? Cost? Or speed of the completion of the building? As events

unfolded it appears to me that they understood their task to be one of trying to achieve early

delivery of the new Parliament building, whilst maintaining quality. In my opinion that meant

inevitably that whatever lip-service was paid to it, the cost of the building took a back seat.

4.22

As previously noted, the original proposal was that the selection panel would be chaired by

Henry McLeish.179 However, a decision appears to have been made on 6 February 1998180 by

Donald Dewar that he would chair the panel himself. Membership of the panel was finally

settled on 27 February 1998.181 In addition to Donald Dewar it comprised Dr Gibbons, Mr

Gordon, Ms Wark, Professor Andrew MacMillan, formerly Professor of Architecture in Glasgow

University and Head of the Mackintosh School of Architecture in Glasgow, and Miss Joan

O’Connor, a former President of the Royal Incorporation of Architects in Ireland.

6.1

One of the most significant, if not the most significant, decisions taken during the course of the

Project was to adopt construction management as the procurement vehicle for the construction

of the Holyrood building. Construction management is one of the relatively new “fast track”

methods of construction procurement, developed in the late 1980s. Under traditional

contracting, design is substantially completed before the construction work is put out to tender

after which a contract is agreed with a contractor to carry out that work, either directly or

through sub contractors, increasingly on a fixed price basis. Under construction management

design, tendering and construction overlap. The client employs a designer and, separately, a

construction manager who is engaged as a fee earning consultant to programme and coordinate

the design and construction activities. The actual construction work is divided into

packages which are sequentially put out to tender and are undertaken by trade contractors

who are contracted to the client. Construction management offers the advantage of speed but

with the disadvantage of price uncertainty until the last package contract has been let.

7.2

European procurement rules applied and DLE drafted the OJEC Notice289 which appeared in

the Official Journal on 12 August 1998. It confirmed that the “restricted” procedure would apply

in terms of which prospective tenderers would be subject to a selection process in advance oftender invitation. It disclosed a construction cost budget of £50 million and award criteria, as

for the Architect, seeking the “economically most advantageous tender in terms of price, quality

and other criteria”. It indicated a construction period lasting from 1 July 1999 to 29 June 2001,

7.6

Tenderers

Sir Robert McAlpine Adjusted tender value 4,846,466

Tenderer 2 Adjusted tender value 5,027,156

Tenderer 3 Adjusted tender value 6,136,756

Bovis Adjusted tender value 5,572,162

Add estimated inflation 200,000

Add fee for PCG 500,000

Total 6,272,162

It can be seen that, on the basis of DLE’s assessment, Bovis was the highest tenderer.

The lowest tender was not accepted!!!

I can go on for ever but believe me your assumptions are wrong. It was most certainly not a "design & build contract and Dewar was certainly involved in the process.

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You sound a wee bit grumpy there Sam. What's up? Scotland humped again?

Never mind. Altogether now 'Oh Flower of Scotland............... ' :lol:

Sing up. Sing up. What's the matter with you? We can't hear you here. Louder! Louder!!

That's not a nice attitude, G12bloke. :(

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You sound a wee bit grumpy there Sam. What's up? Scotland humped again?

Never mind. Altogether now 'Oh Flower of Scotland............... ' :lol:

Sing up. Sing up. What's the matter with you? We can't hear you here. Louder! Louder!!

This has to be the Childish Post of the month.

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This has to be the Childish Post of the month.

All that aside, Sam.

I think this climbdown or rather revised strategy has been badly handled and sadly, has made the SNP look weak and lacking in commitment on this issue. I read the SNP Campaign Manfiesto and it is just more of the same stuff.... stuff that has so far failed to convince more than 29% of Scots that Indendence is a viable option for Scotland.

Personally, I think backing down on the referendum will not be seen a strong strategic decision by anybody, including many party members. I agree we are in the middle of a financial crisis but would say that this is what Governements are elected to deal with. Not stand shuffling on the sidelines complaining that it is someone elses fault. I think AS would have come out with more standing had he forged ahead with the Referendum.

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All that aside, Sam.

I think this climbdown or rather revised strategy has been badly handled and sadly, has made the SNP look weak and lacking in commitment on this issue. I read the SNP Campaign Manfiesto and it is just more of the same stuff.... stuff that has so far failed to convince more than 29% of Scots that Indendence is a viable option for Scotland.

Personally, I think backing down on the referendum will not be seen a strong strategic decision by anybody, including many party members. I agree we are in the middle of a financial crisis but would say that this is what Governements are elected to deal with. Not stand shuffling on the sidelines complaining that it is someone elses fault. I think AS would have come out with more standing had he forged ahead with the Referendum.

Only to those that want them to appear weak. Others might see it as a clever move.

What would you suggest would be done if say the referendum comes out with say 35% wanting independence and 65% don't knows or for the status quo?

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Guest larrytrooper

You sound a wee bit grumpy there Sam. What's up? Scotland humped again?

Never mind. Altogether now 'Oh Flower of Scotland............... ' B)

Sing up. Sing up. What's the matter with you? We can't hear you here. Louder! Louder!!

I would like to thank OZ for posting such a professional answer to the discussion, perhaps some more of us could aspire to such a well put together well researched post. (I include myself here) not only because it properly backs up what we have been saying.

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Only to those that want them to appear weak. Others might see it as a clever move.

What would you suggest would be done if say the referendum comes out with say 35% wanting independence and 65% don't knows or for the status quo?

Well, I'm not one of those, Sam. I genuinely think that if tested, in the current climate, support would have increased. Perhaps it was unwise to set a fixed date in the first place because as it stands, on the issue of independence, they have over promised and undelivered. sad.gif It may have been wiser to announce that a referendum would be held when they were confident of it succeeding.

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Well, I'm not one of those, Sam. I genuinely think that if tested, in the current climate, support would have increased. Perhaps it was unwise to set a fixed date in the first place because as it stands, on the issue of independence, they have over promised and undelivered. sad.gif It may have been wiser to announce that a referendum would be held when they were confident of it succeeding.

we'll know in May 2011

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I would like to thank OZ for posting such a professional answer to the discussion, perhaps some more of us could aspire to such a well put together well researched post. (I include myself here) not only because it properly backs up what we have been saying.

Thanks Larry. Being a Builder I was fascinated by the schemozzle on the design & building of your Parliament House. I wondered how they could have got it so wrong. I read all of the transcripts of the Fraser Enquiry. Fascinating stuff (at least to me). Straight out of the "Boys Own Book" "How to ##### up building projects made easy"

I thought Lord Faser's conclusions were a bit mild

The kindest thing I can say about Donald Dewar, on this subject, is that he was totally out of his depth and very badly advised. I know nothing of the man

From G12s various posts it looks like mis-information may be being generated about it to cover the blunders made by him & his Cohorts.

WAY OFF SUBJECT but

I paraphrase coz would be too hard to find.

My fav bit in transcripts was at a large project meeting where a rather ignorant, bgut loud mouthed, SMP thundered

"WE will not allow one penny more than £3,???,??? to be spent."

A, very obviously pissed off, consultant replied " Certainly Sir, which part of the roof do you wish omitted?"

Incidently it was my curiousty about Parliament house that brought me, indirectly, to this forum

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These things are all well and good but how many of them have "contributed to the life of the average Scot"?

Feudal tenure? Crofting Reform? Fur farms? How many 'average Scots' actually pay for presecriptions or benefit from care for the elderly? How many 'average Scots' get free tuition?

While not considering myself as average,who does ? I am a working class mother, always in employment since my youth. I get prescriptions and pay for them. I will hopefully reach an age where I will need some support and care, my father did and we were grateful for it. Our elderly population is growing continuously and is a fairly large % of the population. My children and I, as an adult returner went on to higher education as did so many I know. We have no vested interest in crofts or such but are also glad that fur farms are no longer legal as it was an abbhorent practice that no decent minded human would want perpetuated.

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Guest larrytrooper

You sound a wee bit grumpy there Sam. What's up? Scotland humped again?

Never mind. Altogether now 'Oh Flower of Scotland............... ' B)

Sing up. Sing up. What's the matter with you? We can't hear you here. Louder! Louder!!

WHERE ARE YOU G12?

Can you not find an answer for Oz?

What do you think Sam, if I ever read anyone being humiliated on their view, then it was over this one (DD and his Parliament building!!)

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WHERE ARE YOU G12?

Can you not find an answer for Oz?

What do you think Sam, if I ever read anyone being humiliated on their view, then it was over this one (DD and his Parliament building!!)

Oz isnae the humiliating kinda guy, more informative.

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WHERE ARE YOU G12?

Can you not find an answer for Oz?

What do you think Sam, if I ever read anyone being humiliated on their view, then it was over this one (DD and his Parliament building!!)

C'mon Mr. LarryTrooper. That's way out of order. Why spoil a decent discussion with careless language? If you weren't being careless and this is your way of informing us of your BDSM proclivities, then I apologise. Doesn't mean you're a bad person.

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Guest larrytrooper

Oz isnae the humiliating kinda guy, more informative.

Absolutely correct about Oz,

Perhaps that's why G12 has not answered him.

'Though I could't say that about G12.

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Guest larrytrooper

C'mon Mr. LarryTrooper. That's way out of order. Why spoil a decent discussion with careless language? If you weren't being careless and this is your way of informing us of your BDSM proclivities, then I apologise. Doesn't mean you're a bad person.

Sgriob, I apologise if I have offended you, but I was offended by G12's rude comment about not dignifying my post, so I bit back. I am afraid I did not start this.

Larry.

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Sgriob, I apologise if I have offended you, but I was offended by G12's rude comment about not dignifying my post, so I bit back. I am afraid I did not start this.

Larry.

I think biting is ok, so long as it is mutually consenual and safe words are respected. tongue.gif

Ok, G12 snarfed and Larry snarfed back - let's continue. smile.gif

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Sgriob, I apologise if I have offended you, but I was offended by G12's rude comment about not dignifying my post, so I bit back. I am afraid I did not start this.

Larry.

Nae problem, Larry. I was just enjoying and learning from the exchange of views and information. I love a verbal fight as much as the next man, but not in EVERY thread. Carry on, Sergeant. B)

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