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harper

Scottish Independence ...

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That still doesn't explain why you feel "Salmond is correct to consider delaying any referendum on whether we should have a referendum...."

Surely one referendum is all it takes. Salmond, or his grandson, marches on Westminster armed with the 'settled will of the Scottish people', Westminster roll over to let him tickle their tummy and it's all over.

Why a referendum on whether we should have a referendum? If Salmond, or anyone, can get Holyrood to go for it - why not just go for it?

I have already answered several times why Salmond should delay, its in various previous posts. I'm still waiting for you to post reasons why Scotland should remain part of the Union?

You also know full well that if Salmond launched a referendum on independence the unionists would play the pedant card and announce that it is a reserve matter.

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I think Alex Salmond has done a great job in office on everything bar the issue of Independence. The whole thing seems a muddle to me. Even the latest letter to party members, Challenge for Independence, Holyrood 2011 campaign, tells you absolutely nothing on the issue.

"Scotland needs to have the full powers of an independent nation if it is to fully flourish - and with Independence the only limits on what Scotland can achieve are the limits we put on our imagination. " Blah, blah blah... send donation.

Harper, what do you suggest he does?

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Harper, what do you suggest he does?

Good question, Sam.

I wouldn't delay the referendum. I would have the courage of my conviction and confidence in Scotland's people to canvas opinon now. I can't think of any greater negotiating tool for dealing with the Coalition Government over future spending than a solid base of opinon.

You are going to get some bloody silly answers if you keep on answering your own questions Sam :lol::o :o

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Harper, what do you suggest he does?

Good question, Sam.

I wouldn't delay the referendum. I would have the courage of my conviction and confidence in Scotland's people to canvas opinon now. I can't think of any greater negotiating tool for dealing with the Coalition Government over future spending than a solid base of opinon.

Good question, Sam,

I wouldn't delay the referendu .I would have the courage of my conviction and enough confidence in Scotland's people to canvas public opinion now. I can't think of any greater negotiating tool for dealing with this Coalition Government over future spending, than a solid base of public opinion. smile.gif

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You are going to get some bloody silly answers if you keep on answering your own questions Sam laugh.giflaugh.giftongue.gif

I was just fixing that, smart arse. I was posting and watching David Tennant at the same time. laugh.gif

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I have already answered several times why Salmond should delay, its in various previous posts. I'm still waiting for you to post reasons why Scotland should remain part of the Union?

You also know full well that if Salmond launched a referendum on independence the unionists would play the pedant card and announce that it is a reserve matter.

I'm au fait with why Salmond will delay. What I don't understand is why you feel there's a need for a referendum on having a referendum. That just seems to prolonging his pain.

I've previously explained about your second statement (which has acquired a question mark despite not being a question). It's not the task of those who'd maintain the status quo to defend their position. It's for those who seek to change things to make a case.

I've previously used the courtroom analogy. A person is innocent (status quo) until those who'd try to change that status to guilty prove their case. That's why the prosecution goes first and, having heard what the prosecution have to say, the judge often rules there's no case to answer.

I firmly believe that, having heard the 'case' for independence, the people of Scotland will decide there's no case to answer and vote (overwhelmingly) NO!

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I'm au fait with why Salmond will delay. What I don't understand is why you feel there's a need for a referendum on having a referendum. That just seems to prolonging his pain.

I've previously explained about your second statement (which has acquired a question mark despite not being a question). It's not the task of those who'd maintain the status quo to defend their position. It's for those who seek to change things to make a case.

I've previously used the courtroom analogy. A person is innocent (status quo) until those who'd try to change that status to guilty prove their case. That's why the prosecution goes first and, having heard what the prosecution have to say, the judge often rules there's no case to answer.

I firmly believe that, having heard the 'case' for independence, the people of Scotland will decide there's no case to answer and vote (overwhelmingly) NO!

What is the current poll?

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Good question, Sam,

I wouldn't delay the referendu m.I would have the courage of my conviction and enough confidence in Scotland's people to canvas public opinion now. I can't think of any greater negotiating tool for dealing with this Coalition Government over future spending, than a solid base of public opinion. smile.gif

I'd like Salmond to have the courage of what passes for his convictions and call a referendum now. That'd be an end to the matter for a generation. He won't. He knows the proposition will be defeated and, as I'm sure I've said before, he doesn't want to be known as the man who killed off independence for another 25-30 years.

To an extent I'm with Gordon Wilson on this. Salmond should wee or get off the potty.

http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com/scotland/Former-SNP-leader-Gordon-Wilson.6573457.jp

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What is the current poll?

The only poll which matters is the ballot box. The most recent ballot was in May. I won't intrude on Salmond's personal pain but what became of his 20 seats? Where's John Mason?

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You are going to get some bloody silly answers if you keep on answering your own questions Sam ;):D:)

bloody women drivers, she's only gone and pressed the modify button instead of the quote button :lol:

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I'm au fait with why Salmond will delay. What I don't understand is why you feel there's a need for a referendum on having a referendum. That just seems to prolonging his pain.

I've previously explained about your second statement (which has acquired a question mark despite not being a question). It's not the task of those who'd maintain the status quo to defend their position. It's for those who seek to change things to make a case.

I've previously used the courtroom analogy. A person is innocent (status quo) until those who'd try to change that status to guilty prove their case. That's why the prosecution goes first and, having heard what the prosecution have to say, the judge often rules there's no case to answer.

I firmly believe that, having heard the 'case' for independence, the people of Scotland will decide there's no case to answer and vote (overwhelmingly) NO!

And that in a nutshell ladies and gentlemen is why unionism will continue to hold back Scotland.

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The only poll which matters is the ballot box. The most recent ballot was in May. I won't intrude on Salmond's personal pain but what became of his 20 seats? Where's John Mason?

What became of the labour First Minister?

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And that in a nutshell ladies and gentlemen is why unionism will continue to hold back Scotland.

Cop out. laugh.gif

Sam, I don't really get this argument that the reason for delaying the referendum is because it would be bloked by other parties. When was it ever different? Did they ever think it would be given the green light?

Sadly, I think Alex Salmond has blown it on this issue. sad.gif

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Cop out. laugh.gif

Sam, I don't really get this argument that the reason for delaying the referendum is because it would be bloked by other parties. When was it ever different? Did they ever think it would be given the green light?

Sadly, I think Alex Salmond has blown it on this issue. sad.gif

A cop out from me? I've answered everything put to me.

The cop out has been throughout this thread with the silence on why this union is good for Scotland? G12's response that its not for unionism to explain itself says it all really.

I think you are missing several points Harper. I said the reason for delaying any refenrendum is because people are scared and are more likely to vote, for the status quo. Why should we allow the unionists parties to benefit from the complete and utter mismanagement of the economy?

The other point was in relation to what the referendum will ask. Given constitutional change is a reserve matter the Scottish Parliament has no remit to hold a referendum on independence. It can only hold a referendum on whether it can begin negotiations with the UK Government to disolve the union.

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A cop out from me? I've answered everything put to me.

The cop out has been throughout this thread with the silence on why this union is good for Scotland? G12's response that its not for unionism to explain itself says it all really.

I think you are missing several points Harper. I said the reason for delaying any refenrendum is because people are scared and are more likely to vote, for the status quo. Why should we allow the unionists parties to benefit from the complete and utter mismanagement of the economy?

The other point was in relation to what the referendum will ask. Given constitutional change is a reserve matter the Scottish Parliament has no remit to hold a referendum on independence. It can only hold a referendum on whether it can begin negotiations with the UK Government to disolve the union.

Sorry, I thought it was eivdent that I don't think the Union is good for Scotland and I understand the distinction you make about the remit.

I still say that the counter argument applies and that people would be more likely to vote against the unionist parties for their "complete and utter mismanagement of the economy." Given their track record in office I would have thought the time was ripe. wink.gif

Sadly, looks like a cop out to me. sad.gifhttp://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-11196967

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Guest larrytrooper

Tactically exactly what needed to be done.

I agree with all you say Sam. However Harper has a valid argument, not everyone who supports the idea of independence will think it is a good tactical decision.

Personally, I welcome a vote ANYTIME, lets be fair if they can keep voting (ie. Eire etc.) in the EU until they have the answer they wish, we should do the same.

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I agree with all you say Sam. However Harper has a valid argument, not everyone who supports the idea of independence will think it is a good tactical decision.

Personally, I welcome a vote ANYTIME, lets be fair if they can keep voting (ie. Eire etc.) in the EU until they have the answer they wish, we should do the same.

That's a plan. smile.gif

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Going by the complete balls-up that was made in the building of your Parliament house I wouldnt trust any of the pollies to run a chook raffle in a pub let alone a country

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Guest larrytrooper

Going by the complete balls-up that was made in the building of your Parliament house I wouldnt trust any of the pollies to run a chook raffle in a pub let alone a country

Fair point Oz,

It was Donald Dewar who decided Scots architects were not good enough and employed the Spanish chap to do it, he died before completion.

At the time there was a local building that was traditional and perfectly wonderful, but labour decided to go the Spanish route.

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Fair point Oz,

It was Donald Dewar who decided Scots architects were not good enough and employed the Spanish chap to do it, he died before completion.

At the time there was a local building that was traditional and perfectly wonderful, but labour decided to go the Spanish route.

What were they thinking? laugh.gif

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Fair point Oz,

It was Donald Dewar who decided Scots architects were not good enough and employed the Spanish chap to do it, he died before completion.

At the time there was a local building that was traditional and perfectly wonderful, but labour decided to go the Spanish route.

It was also Donald Dewar who envisaged a Scottish Parliament and carried through the work of John Smith. I think our first First Minister will be remembered for more than hiring a Spanish architect.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home-news/my-dad-donald-dewar-1.1058884

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And that in a nutshell ladies and gentlemen is why unionism will continue to hold back Scotland.

Unless, of course, the Nats make a really, really good case for independence and the majority of Scots fall for it. I see no sign of that whatsoever.

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Guest larrytrooper

It was also Donald Dewar who envisaged a Scottish Parliament and carried through the work of John Smith. I think our first First Minister will be remembered for more than hiring a Spanish architect.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home-news/my-dad-donald-dewar-1.1058884

I don't really think so.

There was a huge amount of noise for an independent Scotland, so Smith used the idea to kill off the chance of an independent Scotland.

Dewar also had Scottish waters referred to, when issuing licenses for oil exploration changed the name on the charts from Scotland to Northern English Waters.

He, Dewar did not want an independent nation either.

None of them did or do want to lose the revenue that has kept them alive for years. Without the revenues from, oil gas and whisky the UK would be a much, much poorer nation than it is now.

Which brings me to this question, am I correct in thinking the (English) BBC is not going to broadcast the Glasgow commonwealth games?

If that is true, why? Could anyone think if the games were in England the BBC would not broadcast them then?

Donald when he died certainly left a huge amount of money, he also has a large collection of very, very valuable paintings, some which are on display in a well known solicitors office.

As such a good man of the people, I wonder if the paintings will be lent to the Glasgow art gallery? perhaps his family will just decide to sell them? Which I must say they have every right to.

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