798 replies to this topic

[harper]

I think Sam has put the issue out there perfectly, Harper has accurate points too.
When a sort of intellectual snobbery answer is given about grammar (reminds me of another poster) instead of answering the question Sam has posed. G12 has no answer.
Why are people so frightened to stand on their own two feet? Has the unionist media stopped clear thinking, that somehow we need England or we will be a sad empty useless ruined country?
Why are there so many cowards in our society that will not fight for the right to self determination?
Where are all the Scots socialists, who say they love Scotland but when the party say vote for Tony or Gordon, Scotland comes second?
I must point out, when I suggest fighting I do not under any circumstances mean in a physical way, like bombing innocents to gain a political system.
It is easy to criticize, much harder to do something about it.
G12 is not able to give good reasons to show why we should stay a part of England (that is what it is) as the rubbish spouted by westminster is seen through. They call us British, collectively but all the power, money influence etc., is in the south east.
It may seem that I don't like the English but that is not the case, I prefer to have my country as an independent country and part of the UK just as we are part of the EU.
I understand G12 and others dislike of Mr Salmond, they fear him you see, they are craven. He is a politician of stature, with his faults, but he is passionate about our country and most importantly, he is accurate. I have never seen him bested in a discussion, so bring on Mr Cameron or anyone else to debate with him, I look forward to seeing it, however I suspect it may be a bit like G12 not answering Sam.

Don't disagree with what you have to say, Larry but that was not the question.

Cameron has made his postion clear. Salmond is said to be cooling on the idea of calling a referendum, (in fact further than that, has stated he will not hold a referendum prior to the election) as promised to the people of Scotland. This being the case, where is the strategy, the plan, to take this forward. What happens now to the vision for Scottish Independence?

... And please, let's not turn this into a p*ssing competetion, guys. We can express passionate views withoot slagging people off?



(Btw, G12's comment on grammar was a wee joke at my deliberate botch of fulfilling a challenge to use two phrases in 24 hours in one sentence. I knew it, he knew it - there was no dig intended)

[harper]

You continue to fight, you pick the battles and ideally choose the moment and the battlefield. We have had 40 years of Unionist scare stories (FOI is a Baitch)and that's a lot of disinformation to overcome. We have found ourselves in one of the worst economic downturns in nearly a century, of course people are scared of change (even if they want it). The confidence of the Scottish people needs to be built inch by inch, that will take time.

With all due respect, Sam, that is not an answer.

There is more than misinformation to overcome, there is a complete lack of strategy to be addressed, now that the referendum has been scrapped. I have enormous respect for AS but can't help let down by this decision and I think it will do real damage to his credibility. I would have thought with the present Goverment in power, there would be strong support to test the issue. This really seems now to be a situation of over promising and underdelivering.

[harper]

Sorry G12, I did not realise the grammer was a wee joke, my apologies. (It reminded me of a previous poster!)
I had not heard that AS was cooling on the referendum, like you I will say it does dissapoint me too.
I hope he will openly address this very soon. I suspect that advisors may be influencing him on strategy and perhaps they are more worried by labour or even the Libs, joining the Tories 'cause they change sides to benefit themselves as we see. That would be interesting, having supported labour they change to supporting Ms. Goldie (lovely lady, good sense of humour) Perhaps if all the members e-mailed SNP office he may "Think Again" ?
May I say too, Sam is correct, we do need to bolster the confidence of the Scots, why do good, hard working Scots think we need the hand outs from England to survive?
We have world class people in EVERY part of life. I will not bore you with our wonderful people, but there is a wee book about Scottish inventors etc (Corgi I think) let the doubters read that and get some backbone and self confidence back. Don't listen to the dogma that we would be worse off without England, these people have no courage, ignore them and support your country to stand on it's own two feet.

For our ain folk overseas... ok, the channel.

http://www.bbc.co.uk...otland-11472663


http://www.guardian....ence-referendum

[G12bloke]

So, there is no list of reasons why Scotland should remain part of this Union?

If we personalise this to Alex Salmond then the argument simply becomes an exercise in Ad hominem for the Unionists. Hardly a useful debate, albeit one Unionists would rather have.

I want to know why we should remain part of this Union and 'because that's the way it is' is not an answer.

That's like asking for a list of reasons why someone is innocent. For obvious reasons, that's not how it works.

[G12bloke]

.......................................
I understand G12 and others dislike of Mr Salmond, they fear him you see, they are craven. He is a politician of stature, with his faults, but he is passionate about our country and most importantly, he is accurate. .........................

I don't dislike Salmond. Somewhere on the thread I have described him as a politician of standing.

[Iona Weedug]

I've been in Norn Ireland too long - it took me a few posts before I realised you were talking about the Union of Scotland and England and not the Unionists.

how will Scotland fund total independance?

[Sgriob]

For our ain folk overseas... ok, the channel.

http://www.bbc.co.uk...otland-11472663


http://www.guardian....ence-referendum

Thanks for that, Harper. Expat Scots tend to be reflexive nationalists, but we are not exposed to the hard facts and clear arguments every day. A list of pros and cons would be useful, as someone already said.

Salmond is a brilliant politician who usually wipes the floor with his debate opponents. He's the man to get it done, IMO. But I'm increasingly baffled by his strategy, and therefore his intentions, with regard to independence. What is going on inside that melon of his?

[Pat]

Thanks for that, Harper. Expat Scots tend to be reflexive nationalists, but we are not exposed to the hard facts and clear arguments every day. A list of pros and cons would be useful, as someone already said.

Salmond is a brilliant politician who usually wipes the floor with his debate opponents. He's the man to get it done, IMO. But I'm increasingly baffled by his strategy, and therefore his intentions, with regard to independence. What is going on inside that melon of his?

I find Salmon's strategy odd and wonder how you ever decide when is the best time to have a Referendum.

[harper]

Thanks for that, Harper. Expat Scots tend to be reflexive nationalists, but we are not exposed to the hard facts and clear arguments every day. A list of pros and cons would be useful, as someone already said.

Salmond is a brilliant politician who usually wipes the floor with his debate opponents. If he can't get it done, nobody can, IMO. But I'm increasingly baffled by his strategy, and therefore his intentions, with regard to union. What is going on inside that melon of his?

I'm not too sure, which is why I posed the question. My feeling is that there are many Scots, home and abroad, who will feel let down by this announcement, especially in the light of Cameron's announcement. The whole thing has a feel of a damp sqib about it and I fear that without a clear back up strategy, Salmond will not be taken seriously again on the issue. That said, I am as much at arms length as you and was relying on some home knowledge to fill in the gaps.

[Sgriob]

The whole thing has a feel of a damp sqib about it .......

I'll try not to take that personally.

[samscafeamericain]

I've been in Norn Ireland too long - it took me a few posts before I realised you were talking about the Union of Scotland and England and not the Unionists.

how will Scotland fund total independance?

Scotland in a net contributor to the UK, i.e. we get less money back in block grant than is raised by Scotland for UK Treasury

[samscafeamericain]

I'm not too sure, which is why I posed the question. My feeling is that there are many Scots, home and abroad, who will feel let down by this announcement, especially in the light of Cameron's announcement. The whole thing has a feel of a damp sqib about it and I fear that without a clear back up strategy, Salmond will not be taken seriously again on the issue. That said, I am as much at arms length as you and was relying on some home knowledge to fill in the gaps.

This sounds more like wishful thinking harper. Salmond is no fool, why should he spurn an opportunity for independence due to poor timing. I cannot believe the unionist mentality that is 'fantastic we are royally financialy screwed, where's your independence now'.

If it wasn't such a pathetic stance it would be laughable.

[harper]

This sounds more like wishful thinking harper. Salmond is no fool, why should he spurn an opportunity for independence due to poor timing. I cannot believe the unionist mentality that is 'fantastic we are royally financialy screwed, where's your independence now'.

If it wasn't such a pathetic stance it would be laughable.

I don't think anyone is saying Salmond is a fool, Sam. However, as a party member, I think it is reasonable question to ask.

I think it is playing into the hands of the unionists not to have a clear postion on this and future strategy. Salmond campaigned hard on the basis of Referendum and I think it is highly damaging to the credibility of the SNP not to follow through.

[heidcase]

I'll try not to take that personally.

Some of us alweys knew ye wis a bit wet!

[heidcase]

Policies created and enacted by Scots for Scots. We get to decide what kind of society we want for our people.
Do you mean like Labour "decided" for us for the last 50 years up here?

We would be able to fully harness the benefits of our natural resources for our people.
Give some examples please?

We would be better placed to realise the potential and creativity of our Universities and our people for our people
Again some examples please and dont start on about logie baird/macintosh/tarmacadam!

Simple self determination, we would not as a nation be fighting wars in Iraq or Afghanistan, because we have some colonial baggage.
Dont be too sure,plent would want to invade ingerlund and give them a kicking!

We would be equals in any discussions at an EU and International level; no more for instance would our fishing rights be bargained off the table.
independance in europe...an oxymoron if ever there was one

A Scottish Constitution, for the people, by the people, ach you know the rest.
Aye unforunately we do!

Self responsibility, only when we face up to the benefits and ramifications of our own decisions will we be able to fully develop as a people. Right now, we are nowt but unionist cattle. We as a people are managed.
And we will be managed by Brussels,its happening already for the uk!

I support Independance but mibbes the reason why a lot of folk are shying away from it is the bunch of diddies what have and are running Scotland at the moment!
And not cos of cowardice like what you are slandering dissenters with!

[samscafeamericain]

I don't think anyone is saying Salmond is a fool, Sam. However, as a party member, I think it is reasonable question to ask.

I think it is playing into the hands of the unionists not to have a clear postion on this and future strategy. Salmond campaigned hard on the basis of Referendum and I think it is highly damaging to the credibility of the SNP not to follow through.

The strategy is simple, Independence for Scotland. The timing is unclear, this isn't a man the barricades decision, its a political one, its to be a friendly split. Self determination takes courage, change takes courage; the people of Scotland currently face several future unknowns - their jobs and national finances being the two that are front and centre. Setting out on our own is probably right now one too many unknowns for many frightened people to want to consider. Wonder who has been doing the frightening?

Salmond is correct to consider delaying any referendum on whether we should have a referendum, and whilst this is being considered why would he announce a new strategy until that process of consideration has been gone through?

Going forward we need to knock down the bogeymen created by the unionists to show our people that independence will be both achievable and a new enlightenment for us as a nation.

[samscafeamericain]

I support Independance but mibbes the reason why a lot of folk are shying away from it is the bunch of diddies what have and are running Scotland at the moment!
And not cos of cowardice like what you are slandering dissenters with!

Do you mean like Labour "decided" for us for the last 50 years up here?

No, I mean exactly as I said, policies decided by Scots for an independent Scotland free from South East baggage and direct influence

Give some examples please?
oil & gas obviously, renewable energies of wind, wave and tidal (we can create 4 times more energy than we as a country can consume), food & drink (Scotland accounts for 25% of all UK exports from this sector)

Again some examples please and dont start on about logie baird/macintosh/tarmacadam!
Scotland's universities are world class in many fields, last year we outperformed the US Ivy league universities. In new technologies, such as life sciences (translational medicine, stem cells) Scotland's universities are world leaders. In Chemical sciences we lead the field in areas such as fermentation technology (Heriot Watt Uni) and continuous processing technology.

We would be equals in any discussions at an EU and International level; no more for instance would our fishing rights be bargained off the table.
independance in europe...an oxymoron if ever there was one

It would be for the Scottish people to decide if we wish to remain part of the EU or indeed if we wished greater integration. Would we remain part of Nato, who knows (please no pedantic nonsense about its the UK that's in the EU/Nato)

A Scottish Constitution, for the people, by the people, ach you know the rest.
Aye unforunately we do!
Are you against the concept of a constitution?

Self responsibility, only when we face up to the benefits and ramifications of our own decisions will we be able to fully develop as a people. Right now, we are nowt but unionist cattle. We as a people are managed.
And we will be managed by Brussels,its happening already for the uk!

The UK is already managed and owned lock, stock and barrel by big business

[Iona Weedug]

Scotland in a net contributor to the UK, i.e. we get less money back in block grant than is raised by Scotland for UK Treasury

it was always the funding that put me off independence way back in the 70's when I was a political dodderer (back to that standing again)
If it's down to rearranging the taxes thats well and good if it also relies on things like new energy resources - thats very expensive and of course we would still be burdened by all the bureaucracy of the EU and probably more besides.

Anyone provide a link to funding an indepedent Scotland - in laymans terms?

[samscafeamericain]

it was always the funding that put me off independence way back in the 70's when I was a political dodderer (back to that standing again)
If it's down to rearranging the taxes thats well and good if it also relies on things like new energy resources - thats very expensive and of course we would still be burdened by all the bureaucracy of the EU and probably more besides.

Anyone provide a link to funding an indepedent Scotland - in laymans terms?

There's a lot of smoke n mirrors about this subject. This gives a view (one I agree with obviously)

http://www.realmofsc...nd.com/economy/