Scottish Independence ...

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According to the UK Press Association:

"The Prime Minister has said he is ready to argue the case against Scottish independence in any referendum called by the SNP Government at Holyrood. Scotland's First Minister Alex Salmond is said to be going "slightly going off the idea". (sounds unlikey)

Is this the beginning of the end of the vision for an independent future for Scotland?

Edit by poster: missed a word out.

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Posted · Report post

According to the UK Press Association:

"The Prime Minister has said he is ready to argue the case against Scottish independence in any referendum called by the SNP Government at Holyrood. Scotland's First Minister Alex Salmond is said to be going "slightly going off the idea". (sounds unlikey)

Is this the beginning of the end to an independent future for Scotland?

Salmond went off the idea when his much vaunted, and widely ridiculed, 20 seats vanished up his bahookie.

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Independence is as much a state of mind as it is a concept. You can guarantee in the run up to any such referendum on the settled will of the Scottish people that a quite dreadful campaign of cringing disinformation would be run by the unionist parties, the press and their lackeys. I find it quite incredible that fellow Scots would run down and degrade the abilities of their country and their fellows to manage their own affairs, but rest assured that is exactly what has happened since the 1970s and will continue to happen.

It would be interesting to see a list from the Unionists of the benefits to Scotland of this Union. I wonder how many will be negatives?

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Posted · Report post

Independence is as much a state of mind as it is a concept. You can guarantee in the run up to any such referendum on the settled will of the Scottish people that a quite dreadful campaign of cringing disinformation would be run by the unionist parties, the press and their lackeys. I find it quite incredible that a fellow Scot would run down and degrade the abilities of their country and their fellows to manage their own affairs, but rest assured that is exactly what has happened since the 1970s.

There will be no referendum. Only a tiny minority want one and they're scared ****less to call one.

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There will be no referendum. Only a tiny minority want one and they're scared ****less to call one.

Why would you recommend we stick with this union?

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Independence is as much a state of mind as it is a concept. You can guarantee in the run up to any such referendum on the settled will of the Scottish people that a quite dreadful campaign of cringing disinformation would be run by the unionist parties, the press and their lackeys. I find it quite incredible that fellow Scots would run down and degrade the abilities of their country and their fellows to manage their own affairs, but rest assured that is exactly what has happened since the 1970s and will continue to happen.

It would be interesting to see a list from the Unionists of the benefits to Scotland of this Union. I wonder how many will be negatives?

What do you think would be the benefits of Scottish Independence, samsc?

Or anyone else?

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Independence is as much a state of mind as it is a concept. You can guarantee in the run up to any such referendum on the settled will of the Scottish people that a quite dreadful campaign of cringing disinformation would be run by the unionist parties, the press and their lackeys. I find it quite incredible that a fellow Scot would run down and degrade the abilities of their country and their fellows to manage their own affairs, but rest assured that is exactly what has happened since the 1970s.

At the time of the election there was some discussion on here as to whether the election of a Tory Government would hasten the move towards a referendum. Many thought and hoped it would. This is Cameron's clearest statement that any suggestion will be fiercely robustly opposed. In the face of the news that Alex Salmond is now saying that he wants to delay calling a referendum, what does this amount to? (And just for Hingmie and Pat, I shall phrase it this way) Is Cameron just bummin' his load and does Salmond have the moral chops to follow through on his promise to the people of Scotland?

It is sounding mighty disappointing on both counts.

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Why would you recommend we stick with this union?

It isn't a question of recommending sticking with the union. There isn't going to be a referendum - Alex knows he'll lose and, when he loses, the SNP will vanish into obscurity again for many, many years.

Rather than risk that he'll bottle a referendum - just as he's done this time round. In the words of his hero, the auld ***** herself, he's frit.

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At the time of the election there was some discussion on here as to whether the election of a Tory Government would hasten the move towards a referendum. Many thought and hoped it would. This is Cameron's clearest statement that any suggestion will be fiercely robustly opposed. In the face of the news that Alex Salmond is now saying that he wants to delay calling a referendum, what does this amount to?

At least it gets the discussion under way and out in the open.

Think it is a misjudged move by Cameron - just the sort of talk that will propel Scotland's population into voting Scottish Nationslist.

(And just for Hingmie and Pat, I shall phrase it this way) Is Cameron just bummin' his load and does Salmond have the moral chops to follow through on his promise to the people of Scotland? It is sounding mighty disappointing on both counts.

:lol:

Smarty pants! (just sticking with the nether regions theme).

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...................(And just for Hingmie and Pat, I shall phrase it this way) Is Cameron just bummin' his load and does Salmond have the moral chops to follow through on his promise to the people of Scotland?

...........................

Creating an artificial sentence by sticking a conjunction between two questions is tantamount to cheating :lol:

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What do you think would be the benefits of Scottish Independence, samsc?

Or anyone else?

Policies created and enacted by Scots for Scots. We get to decide what kind of society we want for our people.

We would be able to fully harness the benefits of our natural resources for our people.

We would be better placed to realise the potential and creativity of our Universities and our people for our people

Simple self determination, we would not as a nation be fighting wars in Iraq or Afghanistan, because we have some colonial baggage.

We would be equals in any discussions at an EU and International level; no more for instance would our fishing rights be bargained off the table.

A Scottish Constitution, for the people, by the people, ach you know the rest.

Self responsibility, only when we face up to the benefits and ramifications of our own decisions will we be able to fully develop as a people. Right now, we are nowt but unionist cattle. We as a people are managed.

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At least it gets the discussion under way and out in the open.

Think it is a misjudged move by Cameron - just the sort of talk that will propel Scotland's population into voting Scottish Nationslist.

laugh.gif

Smarty pants! (just sticking with the nether regions theme).

Actually, I think it is more likely to be the bit where he said he wants to re-establish the Tories in Scotland... now there's an SNP campaign winner if ever I heard one.

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It isn't a question of recommending sticking with the union. There isn't going to be a referendum - Alex knows he'll lose and, when he loses, the SNP will vanish into obscurity again for many, many years.

Rather than risk that he'll bottle a referendum - just as he's done this time round. In the words of his hero, the auld ***** herself, he's frit.

we are not talking about Alex Salmond, we are talking about the independence of your nation, why are you running away from the question?

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Creating an artificial sentence by sticking a conjunction between two questions is tantamount to cheating wink.gif

Pfft! away and biel yur heid you. laugh.gif

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we are not talking about Alex Salmond, we are talking about the independence of your nation, why are you running away from the question?

Sam, AS has been the public face of Scotland's drive for Independence, of course it has everything to do with him at this point. Seriously, if there is to be no referendum, what happens next?

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we are not talking about Alex Salmond, we are talking about the independence of your nation, why are you running away from the question?

Alex is the only politician of any standing in the (whole of the) UK with any aspirations to Scottish independence - it's only fair he should get the credit/ blame for what his singulary misguided minions are trying to achieve.

There's no running away from the question. In the unlikely event a question is ever put to the nation it will be on the basis - do you want independence and the two or three people who do will be required to explain and support their desire for a change.

Scotland is an intrinsically conservative (with a small c) country thus, by definition, resistant to change. Those who seek change have the task to explaining why it should happen.

It's a bit like an innocent man not having to prove his innocence. Those who would seek to change his status to guilty need to prove the case.

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Sam, AS has been the public face of Scotland's drive for Independence, of course it has everything to do with him at this point. Seriously, if there is to be no referendum, what happens next?

Salmond does not wish his legacy to be 'the man who lost the referendum that kicked independence into the long grass for a generation or more' (the only person I've heard calling for a referendum day after day after day till the Scottish people return the 'right' answer was the very forgettable and wholly useless John Mason).

Salmond would rather do nothing than run the risk of losing. Frit, as I said before.

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So, there is no list of reasons why Scotland should remain part of this Union?

If we personalise this to Alex Salmond then the argument simply becomes an exercise in Ad hominem for the Unionists. Hardly a useful debate, albeit one Unionists would rather have.

I want to know why we should remain part of this Union and 'because that's the way it is' is not an answer.

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Sam, AS has been the public face of Scotland's drive for Independence, of course it has everything to do with him at this point. Seriously, if there is to be no referendum, what happens next?

You continue to fight, you pick the battles and ideally choose the moment and the battlefield. We have had 40 years of Unionist scare stories (FOI is a Baitch)and that's a lot of disinformation to overcome. We have found ourselves in one of the worst economic downturns in nearly a century, of course people are scared of change (even if they want it). The confidence of the Scottish people needs to be built inch by inch, that will take time.

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Alex is the only politician of any standing in the (whole of the) UK with any aspirations to Scottish independence - it's only fair he should get the credit/ blame for what his singulary misguided minions are trying to achieve.

There's no running away from the question. In the unlikely event a question is ever put to the nation it will be on the basis - do you want independence and the two or three people who do will be required to explain and support their desire for a change.

Scotland is an intrinsically conservative (with a small c) country thus, by definition, resistant to change. Those who seek change have the task to explaining why it should happen.

It's a bit like an innocent man not having to prove his innocence. Those who would seek to change his status to guilty need to prove the case.

I think Sam has put the issue out there perfectly, Harper has accurate points too.

When a sort of intellectual snobbery answer is given about grammar (reminds me of another poster) instead of answering the question Sam has posed. G12 has no answer.

Why are people so frightened to stand on their own two feet? Has the unionist media stopped clear thinking, that somehow we need England or we will be a sad empty useless ruined country?

Why are there so many cowards in our society that will not fight for the right to self determination?

Where are all the Scots socialists, who say they love Scotland but when the party say vote for Tony or Gordon, Scotland comes second?

I must point out, when I suggest fighting I do not under any circumstances mean in a physical way, like bombing innocents to gain a political system.

It is easy to criticize, much harder to do something about it.

G12 is not able to give good reasons to show why we should stay a part of England (that is what it is) as the rubbish spouted by westminster is seen through. They call us British, collectively but all the power, money influence etc., is in the south east.

It may seem that I don't like the English but that is not the case, I prefer to have my country as an independent country and part of the UK just as we are part of the EU.

I understand G12 and others dislike of Mr Salmond, they fear him you see, they are craven. He is a politician of stature, with his faults, but he is passionate about our country and most importantly, he is accurate. I have never seen him bested in a discussion, so bring on Mr Cameron or anyone else to debate with him, I look forward to seeing it, however I suspect it may be a bit like G12 not answering Sam.

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I think Sam has put the issue out there perfectly, Harper has accurate points too.

When a sort of intellectual snobbery answer is given about grammar (reminds me of another poster) instead of answering the question Sam has posed. G12 has no answer.

Why are people so frightened to stand on their own two feet? Has the unionist media stopped clear thinking, that somehow we need England or we will be a sad empty useless ruined country?

Why are there so many cowards in our society that will not fight for the right to self determination?

Where are all the Scots socialists, who say they love Scotland but when the party say vote for Tony or Gordon, Scotland comes second?

I must point out, when I suggest fighting I do not under any circumstances mean in a physical way, like bombing innocents to gain a political system.

It is easy to criticize, much harder to do something about it.

G12 is not able to give good reasons to show why we should stay a part of England (that is what it is) as the rubbish spouted by westminster is seen through. They call us British, collectively but all the power, money influence etc., is in the south east.

It may seem that I don't like the English but that is not the case, I prefer to have my country as an independent country and part of the UK just as we are part of the EU.

I understand G12 and others dislike of Mr Salmond, they fear him you see, they are craven. He is a politician of stature, with his faults, but he is passionate about our country and most importantly, he is accurate. I have never seen him bested in a discussion, so bring on Mr Cameron or anyone else to debate with him, I look forward to seeing it, however I suspect it may be a bit like G12 not answering Sam.

Don't disagree with what you have to say, Larry but that was not the question.

Cameron has made his postion clear. Salmond is said to be cooling on the idea of calling a referendum, (in fact further than that, has stated he will not hold a referendum prior to the election) as promised to the people of Scotland. This being the case, where is the strategy, the plan, to take this forward. What happens now to the vision for Scottish Independence?

... And please, let's not turn this into a p*ssing competetion, guys. We can express passionate views withoot slagging people off? cool.gif

(Btw, G12's comment on grammar was a wee joke at my deliberate botch of fulfilling a challenge to use two phrases in 24 hours in one sentence. I knew it, he knew it - there was no dig intended)

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You continue to fight, you pick the battles and ideally choose the moment and the battlefield. We have had 40 years of Unionist scare stories (FOI is a Baitch)and that's a lot of disinformation to overcome. We have found ourselves in one of the worst economic downturns in nearly a century, of course people are scared of change (even if they want it). The confidence of the Scottish people needs to be built inch by inch, that will take time.

With all due respect, Sam, that is not an answer.

There is more than misinformation to overcome, there is a complete lack of strategy to be addressed, now that the referendum has been scrapped. I have enormous respect for AS but can't help let down by this decision and I think it will do real damage to his credibility. I would have thought with the present Goverment in power, there would be strong support to test the issue. This really seems now to be a situation of over promising and underdelivering. sad.gif

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With all due respect, Sam, that is not an answer.

There is more than misinformation to overcome, there is a complete lack of strategy to be addressed, now that the referendum has been scrapped. I have enormous respect for AS but can't help let down by this decision and I think it will do real damage to his credibility. I would have thought with the present Goverment in power, there would be strong support to test the issue. This really seems now to be a situation of over promising and underdelivering. sad.gif

Sorry G12, I did not realise the grammer was a wee joke, my apologies. (It reminded me of a previous poster!)

I had not heard that AS was cooling on the referendum, like you I will say it does dissapoint me too.

I hope he will openly address this very soon. I suspect that advisors may be influencing him on strategy and perhaps they are more worried by labour or even the Libs, joining the Tories 'cause they change sides to benefit themselves as we see. That would be interesting, having supported labour they change to supporting Ms. Goldie (lovely lady, good sense of humour) Perhaps if all the members e-mailed SNP office he may "Think Again" ?

May I say too, Sam is correct, we do need to bolster the confidence of the Scots, why do good, hard working Scots think we need the hand outs from England to survive?

We have world class people in EVERY part of life. I will not bore you with our wonderful people, but there is a wee book about Scottish inventors etc (Corgi I think) let the doubters read that and get some backbone and self confidence back. Don't listen to the dogma that we would be worse off without England, these people have no courage, ignore them and support your country to stand on it's own two feet.

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Sorry G12, I did not realise the grammer was a wee joke, my apologies. (It reminded me of a previous poster!)

I had not heard that AS was cooling on the referendum, like you I will say it does dissapoint me too.

I hope he will openly address this very soon. I suspect that advisors may be influencing him on strategy and perhaps they are more worried by labour or even the Libs, joining the Tories 'cause they change sides to benefit themselves as we see. That would be interesting, having supported labour they change to supporting Ms. Goldie (lovely lady, good sense of humour) Perhaps if all the members e-mailed SNP office he may "Think Again" ?

May I say too, Sam is correct, we do need to bolster the confidence of the Scots, why do good, hard working Scots think we need the hand outs from England to survive?

We have world class people in EVERY part of life. I will not bore you with our wonderful people, but there is a wee book about Scottish inventors etc (Corgi I think) let the doubters read that and get some backbone and self confidence back. Don't listen to the dogma that we would be worse off without England, these people have no courage, ignore them and support your country to stand on it's own two feet.

For our ain folk overseas... ok, the channel.laugh.gif

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-11472663

http://www.guardian....ence-referendum

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So, there is no list of reasons why Scotland should remain part of this Union?

If we personalise this to Alex Salmond then the argument simply becomes an exercise in Ad hominem for the Unionists. Hardly a useful debate, albeit one Unionists would rather have.

I want to know why we should remain part of this Union and 'because that's the way it is' is not an answer.

That's like asking for a list of reasons why someone is innocent. For obvious reasons, that's not how it works.

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