85 replies to this topic

[lynnski]

Event in George Square on Saturday at 2. It's time to change our futile voting system.



http://www.power2010...parliament/wrjh

[yonza bam]

It's all a bit vague, innit? What kind of 'democratic reform' do they mean? If it's proportional representation they want, which the Lib-Dems have always been campaigning for, why don't they say so?

[ozneil]

It's all a bit vague, innit? What kind of 'democratic reform' do they mean? If it's proportional representation they want, which the Lib-Dems have always been campaigning for, why don't they say so?

NZ has proportional election system. It works. I dont know anything about how it works. We have a preferential voting system it works & is easier to administer than the Kiwi one.

To try to make each person's vote count more equally so all the people can be represented more fairly, Australia uses a system of 'proportional representation' to define the electoral boundaries.
There is an independent boundaries commission that alters electorate boundaies every 2 years based on demographics from the voters role so that every electorate has approx same number of voters.

One, Kalgoorlie in Western Australia is Australia's biggest electorate by area. It covers 2.3 million square kilometres but has 76,000 voters. ...(UK area 245,000Km2)The smallest electorate by area is Wentworth in NSW. It is 26 square kilometres but has 80,000 voters.

In each election we number the candidates in order of preference & the result adjusted by use of preferences until one candidate has over 50% of vote.

[lynnski]

It's all a bit vague, innit?

A bit vague? What part of;

"No matter what the colour of your political stripes, the current system is a democratic travesty and can’t continue.

GATHER SATURDAY 2PM IN GEORGE SQ, GLASGOW TO DEMAND REFORM AND A FAIR VOTING SYSTEM"


is so vague??

What kind of 'democratic reform' do they mean? If it's proportional representation they want, which the Lib-Dems have always been campaigning for, why don't they say so?

"Our "winner takes all" system of First-Past-The-Post is bust beyond repair. It produces unfair and undemocratic results, like the one we've just seen, which don't reflect the wishes of the British people. It empowers a few thousand voters in "marginal" seats who decide elections, while those in "safe" seats, where the MP has a large majority, are ignored. And it hands huge power to the ruling party based on a tiny proportion of the vote. It is time for the UK to move to a proportional system that ties a party's share of seats to its share of votes across the country.

This is the fairest system. It would ensure everyone's vote counts; it would offer voters more choice and it would produce a government and Parliament that represents the British people."

I believe they did say so.

[rolo tomassi]

Event in George Square on Saturday at 2. It's time to change our futile voting system.



http://www.power2010...parliament/wrjh

Yeah, I doubt anyone's labouring under the impression that our voting system's anything like fair or representative but at the same time, I'm gonna pass on the invite to attend this demo because I just have the most horrible feeling it could descend into something I don't wanna be part of. Sincerely hope I'm wrong about that.

Thing is there are inherent drawbacks in EVERY voting system. If we adopted PR for example, while this would please many of the minority parties and give a fairer outcome to those with a decent share of the vote, it would also pave the way to having BNP/National Front take up seats in the parliament.

Is the SIngle Transferable Vote system that we have in Scotland's elections preferable to PR, what do we think?

[ozneil]

Yeah, I doubt anyone's labouring under the impression that our voting system's anything like fair or representative but at the same time, I'm gonna pass on the invite to attend this demo because I just have the most horrible feeling it could descend into something I don't wanna be part of. Sincerely hope I'm wrong about that.

Thing is there are inherent drawbacks in EVERY voting system. If we adopted PR for example, while this would please many of the minority parties and give a fairer outcome to those with a decent share of the vote, like the LibDems, it would also pave the way to having BNP/National Front take up seats in the parliament.

Is the SIngle Transferable Vote system that we have in Scotland's elections preferable to PR, what do we think?

Speaking as one who has lived and voted under first past the post & a proportional/preferential system I prefer the latter as the ordinary voter has much more power.

As stated elsewhere the electorates have roughly same number of voters.

One of the 2 major parties will always win but to do so they must take on board the wishes of the minor parties which they can live with to get their preferences (ie be No2 on their ticket)

Eg if I can think of one.

Ok Party A needs the votes of "nothing under the kilts party" so it promises its candidate to introduce a Bill on this in Parliament if they are placed No2 on the "nothing under the kilts parties" card if suuficent people vote for them ie they come high up in results for their preferences to be taken into account. This way if the people feel strongly about it they will vote for "nothing under the kilts party" knowing their vote will go to party A. Party A will introduce Kilty kilty Cauld bum bill as promised. Party B may do same with their paty as No 2 in lieu of Party A.

I have used a ludicrous example but in this way serious local issues can be addressed. It was done very successfully with gun laws.

[ozneil]

I can see preferrential voting working in Scoland thus

Ballot paper

Able (Labour)

Bown (tory)

Smih (libs)

Mc Tavish (SNP)

Result
Able 35%

Brown 30%

McTavish 20%

Smith 15%

Mactavish's preferences split between Able & Brown as marked on ballot paper say 80% to Able & 20% to Smith because of major parties promises eg more power to Scots Parliament

Revised results
Able 35% +( 80%x20%) = 51% Winner

Brown 30%+ (20% x20%) 34%

If Able hadnt yet achieved 50% then smith's votes would be added

[rolo tomassi]

Proportional Representation (PR) is not necessarily the same as Single Transferable Vote (STV), which Scotland has been using since 2007 in local and national elections.

http://en.wikipedia....ansferable_vote

I agree with you, Oz, that either of them is wayyy preferable to first past the post. Constituency boundaries have been carved up over time to assist whatever major party is in power and I'm guessing most Scots are well aware of that and use their vote accordingly--- until the system's changed.

By way of basic illustration re today's UKE outcome;

Tory; 10.7 million votes/305 seats
Lab; 8.6 million votes/258 seats
LibDem; 6.8 million votes/57 seats
SNP; 481,000 votes/6 seats

And UKIP and the BNP both polled more votes than the SNP due to support in England, but have no seats. Under the alternatives they would have MPs in parly just to annoy the flip out of everyone. So yeah, 'fairer' systems have their downsides....

The way things are, almost everyone in Scotland has voted anti-Tory yet it's looking possible they will be in government. I'm feeling jittery about this on all manner of levels tonight.

[ozneil]

Rolo Rote

Proportional Representation (PR) is not necessarily the same as Single Transferable Vote (STV), which Scotland has been using since 2007 in local and national elections.

Yeah I know. We use it in Senate Elections

[Iona Weedug]

Can we no just leave things alone and stay with the system of letting one useless tos*er party make the same useless c*c*ups

[notanimby]

Taking Back Parliament - an interesting notion, but doomed tae failure A couple of things

The parliament of westmonster is defined as being sovereign whilst in Scotland the people are defined as sovereign. Therefore who has the highest authority, I would say the people are.

So this wee demo in Scotland is defined diffrintly in Scotland compared to teh rest of the UK, the "claim of right" in Scotland is totally diffrint


Am almost agreein wae Westtie on this wan in her "internet pish" point. Faceplook and other "soshul networkin'" sites may have their place nooadays but they tend tae be used aby a lot of "whits todays fashionable cause" shallow types who have no longevity with any "cause" becoz when they dinnae get their ain way rihgt away they lose interest and its back tae X-factor or sum other such sh!te.

[lynnski]

Disagree with your view there Westtie. The internet helped Obama get elected. A lot of young people are a lot more politically motivated than you give them credit for. The only reason I'm not there is coz my flippin asshole neighbours partied till after 4am and I didn't get to sleep til after 6!! grr!!

[harper]

Disagree with your view there Westtie. The internet helped Obama get elected. A lot of young people are a lot more politically motivated than you give them credit for. The only reason I'm not there is coz my flippin asshole neighbours partied till after 4am and I didn't get to sleep til after 6!! grr!!

I think you are right, young people are being turned onto politics and they will change the face of politics. The have no loyality to the old ways and they will change the face of politics. I am a big fan of the virtual world and agree with Stephen Fry all they way. They can tweet to their hearts content. As long as they are switched on and engaged.. that's what counts, not the means of doing so.

[lynnski]

I think you are right, young people are being turned onto politics and they will change the face of politics. The have no loyality to the old ways and they will change the face of politics. I am a big fan of the virtual world and agree with Stephen Fry all they way. They can tweet to their hearts content. As long as they are switched on and engaged.. that's what counts, not the means of doing so.

Words of wisdom Harper! The internet has opened many, many new means of people having their voices heard, and many new ways of making sure the politicians sit up and take note. My 18 year old cousin and her Uni friends were actual proper Labour activists, out on the road, canvassing and whatnot. I don't agree with her politics but I love her passion. Westtie, you just need to surround yourself with some youngsters!

[harper]

So it doesn't bother you that they don't know anything because they don't sit still long enough to properly learn anything??

I've heard a story just today about someone's daughter voting for the first time on Thursday - came out from the polling station puzzled as to why there was no sign of the names Cameron Clegg or Brown on her ballot paper. I daresay she wasn't alone.


Engaged my arse.

Well that's hardly surprising, you are always looking on the sh*te side of life, Westtender.

It's a good job we don't take your seriously:)